Double Feed/Mag Dumping Issue - Need Nozzle Data

Flatlander · February 11th, 2009, 12:55

Just measured an unknown m4 nozzle I had (believe it's a stock CA) and it came to 20.68mm (I used a digital caliper).

Blackthorne · February 11th, 2009, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flatlander

Your earlier posts make it sound like your tappet plate isn't moving all the way forward; can you confirm that the tappet plate spring was installed?

Yes, it's in place and feels like new. Very strong. The tappet does look like it's either worn or custom however. It's not flat, but has a cut out where the pin on the sector gear hits it and where it hits the shat for the sector gear. I will take some PICS tomorrow when I tear it down again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flatlander

- After reassembling the mechbox, push the nozzle backwards and see that it springs back forward and isn't jamming. Sometimes on my m4 - depending where the gears are in the cycle - it won't let me push the nozzle in manually but always will after I've closed the mechbox and the tappet cam is at the 1 o'clock position.

No issues at all, the only time it won't go all the way forward is when the gears have move to the point where the pin on the sector gear starts to pull the tapet back. Note that this is the position the gun stops in 99 times out of 100, and is the position it's in when I tear the box down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flatlander

- Check to see the hopup/rubber is all installed properly.

Will be checking that tomorrow. I have parade tonight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flatlander

The only time I've seen double feeding is with guns where they have vitually no hopup on - adjust it properly and it blocks the other BB's from following up into the chamber. A good rubber you will need to slightly push the BB into it - good check before you install one.

I did check this. The bump is clearly visible at full hop, and I can press on the bump with a plastic bar, it doesn't move and stays down with pressure on it. BB stops no problem, and I can't blow it through the hopup when it's on full.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flatlander

The Sounds like you understand how things work (ie. no gear timing, how BB's actually feed etc).

I have learned that I will never know everything about these damn things. For something that doesn't have that many parts, it has more complexities than a fricken woman.

Dracheous · February 11th, 2009, 13:32

Has anyone thought of the spring on the tappet plate? Is it worn, twisted, stretched?

Blackthorne · February 11th, 2009, 13:39

Nice and strong, in my first response above.

Actually so strong I think it might be wearing the tappet unnecessarily.

Gump · February 11th, 2009, 22:44

the hopup rubber is what prevents mag dumps. the nozzle blocks the next bb from entering the chamber only while its acting on the round that has already been chambered. when it retracts, it allows one in, and the hopup rubber should stop it. turning the hopup up is not the solution, as the nubbin is downstream from the problem.
if you're getting double feeds, the nozzle is the secondary culprit... the hopup rubber and/or hopup assembly would be the primary. any remaining culprits would be inside the mechbox.... deformed/cracked/malfunctioning or wrong tappet plate or spring, followed by gear or anti-reversal latch problems.

things to keep in mind: the nozzle will not always rest in the same place after firing. where it lands depends on where the anti-reversal latch catches the bevel gear.
you CAN'T have a timing problem if the mechbox cycles - it resets every round.
an improperly sized nozzle could allow a second bb to enter the chamber, forcing a double feed, but a scenario that is more likely would be that your particular mechbox in that metal body combined with that particular front end and that particular hopup and that particular rubber and nozzle is causing an excessive gap, allowing double feeds and mag dumps.
you see, the one thing that TM had going for it was that those plastic molds were the frikkin same every single time, and they had their mechboxes dimensions down to a science, so these problems never existed untill foreign parts were intorduced into the mix. now you have this metal body, that metal front end, some other hopup with an aftermarket rubber and endless combinations of aftermarket mechbox parts that combine to make one big headache.
Looking back at your problem, the solution seems simple. get a brass barrel, and a bag of bb's. load a bb and put the barrel in your mouth. aim and blow hard. this should provide more consistant results.

Blackthorne · February 12th, 2009, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gump

Looking back at your problem, the solution seems simple. get a brass barrel, and a bag of bb's. load a bb and put the barrel in your mouth. aim and blow hard. this should provide more consistant results.

LMFAO!

Roger that brother. It's obviously a sick gun, so I will fuck with it till I get it working LOL.

Blackthorne · February 15th, 2009, 11:29

Two blown bearings, causing all sorts of fucking havok. It's my own fault. I missed it on my initial inspection because I thought I knew what was wrong with the gun, I narrowed my inspection and didn't tear the box down completely. I actually did'nt know the bearing was blown till I was setting the gear down and dropped it about 2 CM to my benchtop. Fucking ball bearings when everywhere.

That's it. This is the third tme bearings have blown on this fucking thing. Back to bushings.

Here is a picture of the tappet. Does this look overly worn to anyone?

ROAR · February 15th, 2009, 13:43

ya thats done dude!

here took a pic of a used one i had....

CDN_Stalker · February 15th, 2009, 16:13

Looks more "fucked with" than worn! Lol, that's very likely the issue you are having. And bearing bushings suck huge ass!

Styrak · February 15th, 2009, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackthorne

Here is a picture of the tappet. Does this look overly worn to anyone?

Worn, yes. Enough to make the gun not work? Probably not.

ROAR · February 15th, 2009, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Styrak

Worn, yes. Enough to make the gun not work? Probably not.

I wouldn't say that the part i circled prob wasnt loading the bb's right.

milehigh · February 15th, 2009, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackthorne

Two blown bearings, causing all sorts of fucking havok. It's my own fault. I missed it on my initial inspection because I thought I knew what was wrong with the gun, I narrowed my inspection and didn't tear the box down completely. I actually did'nt know the bearing was blown till I was setting the gear down and dropped it about 2 CM to my benchtop. Fucking ball bearings when everywhere.

That's it. This is the third tme bearings have blown on this fucking thing. Back to bushings.

What size of bearings are they and what type of spring are you using?

Blackthorne · February 16th, 2009, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by milehigh

What size of bearings are they and what type of spring are you using?

7MM and no idea on the spring. It's got tighter rings at one end, and is baby blue.

milehigh · February 16th, 2009, 14:38

Do you know what fps it's shooting?

Blackthorne · March 13th, 2009, 01:15

OK. Went to bushings and a new tappet plate and guess what? The damn thing works. I just need to re-shim it so it's a touch looser and I will be good to go.

Oh and to everyone in this thread that stated that the nozzle doesn't stop the BB"s from entering the hopup, it does on both our guns (once they are working properly

)

Just like in this animation:

YouTube - version 2 gearbox animation

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February 11th, 2009, 12:55	#16
Flatlander Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Edmonton	Just measured an unknown m4 nozzle I had (believe it's a stock CA) and it came to 20.68mm (I used a digital caliper). __________________ Ronin 49 Team Member

February 11th, 2009, 13:32	#18
Dracheous Lego Head Trader rating Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gatineau, that's right I'm in QUEBEC!	Has anyone thought of the spring on the tappet plate? Is it worn, twisted, stretched? __________________ _________________________________ "The hydrogen economy car from the people who brought you the 'Hindenburg'" - Glen Foster Condoms do not guarantee safe sex any more. A friend of mine wore one and was shot by the woman's husband!

February 11th, 2009, 13:39	#19
Blackthorne A Total Bastard Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Consecon, Ontario	Nice and strong, in my first response above. Actually so strong I think it might be wearing the tappet unnecessarily. __________________ VINCITE OMNIMODO

February 11th, 2009, 22:44	#20
Gump Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2001	the hopup rubber is what prevents mag dumps. the nozzle blocks the next bb from entering the chamber only while its acting on the round that has already been chambered. when it retracts, it allows one in, and the hopup rubber should stop it. turning the hopup up is not the solution, as the nubbin is downstream from the problem. if you're getting double feeds, the nozzle is the secondary culprit... the hopup rubber and/or hopup assembly would be the primary. any remaining culprits would be inside the mechbox.... deformed/cracked/malfunctioning or wrong tappet plate or spring, followed by gear or anti-reversal latch problems. things to keep in mind: the nozzle will not always rest in the same place after firing. where it lands depends on where the anti-reversal latch catches the bevel gear. you CAN'T have a timing problem if the mechbox cycles - it resets every round. an improperly sized nozzle could allow a second bb to enter the chamber, forcing a double feed, but a scenario that is more likely would be that your particular mechbox in that metal body combined with that particular front end and that particular hopup and that particular rubber and nozzle is causing an excessive gap, allowing double feeds and mag dumps. you see, the one thing that TM had going for it was that those plastic molds were the frikkin same every single time, and they had their mechboxes dimensions down to a science, so these problems never existed untill foreign parts were intorduced into the mix. now you have this metal body, that metal front end, some other hopup with an aftermarket rubber and endless combinations of aftermarket mechbox parts that combine to make one big headache. Looking back at your problem, the solution seems simple. get a brass barrel, and a bag of bb's. load a bb and put the barrel in your mouth. aim and blow hard. this should provide more consistant results.

February 15th, 2009, 11:29	#22
Blackthorne A Total Bastard Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Consecon, Ontario	Two blown bearings, causing all sorts of fucking havok. It's my own fault. I missed it on my initial inspection because I thought I knew what was wrong with the gun, I narrowed my inspection and didn't tear the box down completely. I actually did'nt know the bearing was blown till I was setting the gear down and dropped it about 2 CM to my benchtop. Fucking ball bearings when everywhere. That's it. This is the third tme bearings have blown on this fucking thing. Back to bushings. Here is a picture of the tappet. Does this look overly worn to anyone? __________________ VINCITE OMNIMODO Last edited by Blackthorne; February 15th, 2009 at 12:24..

February 15th, 2009, 13:43	#23
ROAR Trader rating Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Edmonton, AB	ya thats done dude! here took a pic of a used one i had.... Last edited by ROAR; February 15th, 2009 at 13:49..

February 15th, 2009, 16:13	#24
CDN_Stalker Official ASC Bladesmith Trader rating Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ont.	Looks more "fucked with" than worn! Lol, that's very likely the issue you are having. And bearing bushings suck huge ass! __________________ STKR Knives http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/STK...17036668380871

February 16th, 2009, 14:38	#29
milehigh Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Victoria	Do you know what fps it's shooting?

March 13th, 2009, 01:15	#30
Blackthorne A Total Bastard Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Consecon, Ontario	OK. Went to bushings and a new tappet plate and guess what? The damn thing works. I just need to re-shim it so it's a touch looser and I will be good to go. Oh and to everyone in this thread that stated that the nozzle doesn't stop the BB"s from entering the hopup, it does on both our guns (once they are working properly ) Just like in this animation: YouTube - version 2 gearbox animation __________________ VINCITE OMNIMODO

Double Feed/Mag Dumping Issue - Need Nozzle Data

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