Year Of The GBBR....or just a stinky smell that's passing through...

[m102404]

Originally Posted by Hata

WE people speak up!
I wanna hear someone that own WE, why they choose WE?

This can't be taken too credibly since I have not had the chance to look closely inside at the WA platform (regardless of Ino, WA, G&P, AGM, etc...)....but here's what I based my decision on:

1. General availability
- availability sucked...so I was probably going to buy whichever I had a first chance at and then post-purchase justify it! LOL Happened to be WE AWSS.

2. Price
- Ino pricing is retarded...so is the tricked out G&P. I get the markups/conversion/etc.....but they're too much for me to sink into "another" platform (got used to the AEG/GBBs...getting over the $$$ shock of the PTW...then this).
- AGM'd on the market are priced way too high for what you're actually getting
- WE's are somewhere in the middle...higher cost from its "ideal/acceptable" because of demand
- Tag in the expected "WA fixes"...and that drives the cost up even more
- Tag in the cost of the magazines (WA $60-90 vs. WE $40-50) and it really starts to add up

3. Generation maturity
- WE AWSS are their "3rd" gen (they did 1st, 2nd and then sort of just called it AWSS...I think). They had mega issues to sort out with version1. Version 2 had been out a while already with all the "fixes" pre-built in. Re-read Manchovie's post about his first-gen one.
- It kind of seems like WA stopped at version 1 (good and bad) and are just going to let other companies build the fixes. Some companies will basically rebuilt/scratch build solid versions based on their platforms...others will just produce parts here and there. Honestly...if you can build something that everyone wants, and other companies will "fix"...then why would you improve your original product very quickly.

4. Performance
- WA's ROCK. They recoil/react harder than the WE's. That might not be a good thing in the end...I kind of wonder if these things will really hold up long term to wicked pounding...time will tell. I'm sure it can't be helping the longevity of the parts though.
- they both shoot retardedly hard out of the box. Mine shot 540fps w/0.20g bbs and propane...I thought my chrono was busted. The WA system seems to be ahead so far with a tunable system.

5. Small details
- unconfirmed...I hear that a suppressor will actually work with a WE and not with a WA
- I like the metal body receiver of the WE (i.e. without having to buy the WA and then get a metal receiver)
- I like the removable M4A1 extension piece on the WE. Winter indoor season is coming up and I prefer short M4's.
- I had the chance to see a couple of locals playing around with the WE AWSS model specifically on a couple of separate occasions. One guy has had an upgraded version1 for about a year, others more recent. I got a chance to pull triggers and see the insides. From a close look at the AWSS nozzle assembly it seemed ok to me (i.e. workable/durable).

So to me...this is somewhat the VHS vs. Beta war. The WA's have a lot more models/makes/upgrades/accessories. The WE is just sort of, "Here you go, it works...there's some other parts available".

NOTE: Again, I don't have any fiddling time in on the WA...I'm going on what I've read up on and personal comments from guys like RacingManiac who have spent time inside one. I've had a decent number of hours into the WE platform. Overall it doesn't blow my socks off from a machining precision sense....but I'm not sure that these things can be made to really tight tolerances and still function (i.e. I think you need a bit of slop here and there).

At some point in time...I'll own both. Just to beat and disect them until they're dead. I've been monkey'ing almost non-stop with the WE for two weeks now and it still works...so that's pretty good so far. I'm onto my 3rd propane bottle and into the second bag of BBs (but I've been messing with other stuff so it's not all GBBR stuff) in the past 2 weeks...so there's been lots of shooting.

Just my $0.02

Tys

[RacingManiac]

I think G&P is a good starting platform....I never had one brand new(mine I got it used), but I think you don't need to put money in to get it to work, barring getting more mags(which is is the fundamental issue with the WA system). Its essentially a propane ready version of the WA with upgraded steel internal and metal exterior. Mine was working when I had it, but I was set on getting NPAS with steel bolt carrier. There are some mod that I think you need to do to the gun which helps it a bit, one is to mod the bolt catch such that it has less chance of damaging your bolt. But other than that the platform is usable out of the box, at a significantly lower cost than Inokatsu, which AFAIK has a lot of problem in its earlier iterations. I can't say cost wise though how it compares to WE in Canada, WOC can get to US for as little as $550 USD, and while thats a lot higher than AGM, you are saving the hassle of having to replace the pot metal parts later....

Performance wise I don't know, WE shoots hotter as I understand, I think that comes down to the trade off WA system made to have a realistic field strip with a complete bolt, which is probably why a lot of people goes for WA in the first place(myself included), and I think as such there were more chances for bugs that need to be worked out....

[Hata]

Originally Posted by safx

Thanks Bri

I heard a lot of people are generally
happy with the WE v3 GBBR. But since
they're a brand I hate for their previous
offerings, it's going to take some serious
convincing— field time, determining the
quality of their metal/system design
before I jump on a $500(US)+ toy.

I guess you can say my main concern is
durability over everything else. I don't
want to pay a premium and then have
to waste time and lots of cash on parts
that shouldn't break quickly. Mind you,
I would buy expensive CNC'd alu/steel
stuff if it's proven or guaranteed. Imagine
that concept in airsoft, guaranteed... lol.

I'll have a VFC AK with a drop in GBB
GHK system soon. I'm sure it'll croak
quickly, so I'll be interested in a nice
replacement kit.

Which part is the most easy to break for both platform?

For WA, I believe is the bolt carrier (no matter which brand you have).
For WE, I'm not sure... (maybe the charging handle, but I believe they improve it in V3)
What else?
BTW, how much for WE in Canada? (I saw $1200CAD retail in AV )

[Brian McIlmoyle]

The GBBR really tests accessories..

I have a replica Eotech .. and it is just keeps shaking off .. the clamp screw whatever can't take the recoil... I always end up going back to iron sights.

I expect there will be durability issues with this gun ..there are parts that clearly will see wear and will fail.. but so far the internals have been infallible and the externals pleasing... and will be better once I get this thing properly "dressed"

I find myself more and more occupied with running games .. than playing them.. so the VOF that any of my guns see certainly is not enough to justify their cost ..

For me the Punch of the GBBR .. the noise and feedback make all their foibles worth it... lets face it if I was worried about what it was going to cost to maintain.. and optimize I would not have purchased in the first place.

As I've said.. most of my guns ( save the FAL and RS AK ) are looking like ugly sisters these days.

[KoolAidMan]

I don't understand how they can simply just double the price i could understand a max of a 200-250$ markup but thats literally 3 times the price how can you even justify paying that when an aeg of similar price would go for 600-700.

[safx]

Thanks for the info guys,
much appreciated.

I'll be watching, reading and
waiting for the dust to settle
before jumping into the pool.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by KoolAidMan

I don't understand how they can simply just double the price i could understand a max of a 200-250$ markup but thats literally 3 times the price how can you even justify paying that when an aeg of similar price would go for 600-700.

clearly I could justify it.. I wanted it,, I paid the price asked

If you are not willing to pay all the whining in the world won't change it.

It costs what it costs .. I don't ask people to justify their price the MARKET sets the price.

You clearly are not in the market..

[m102404]

I think that at this point (and for the purposes of this dicussion) price is immaterial.

The price of GBBR's are being greatly influenced by high demand and short supply (that's why I started this thread AFTER I had bought mine ). As with any flavour of the day/month/year...you'll see inflated prices.

It's been the same with AEGs...don't expect any different from these things. Rule of thumb, $300 bottom floor hard level...double US cost for most things...triple+ for hot ticket items. $1000 ceiling creates a, "Hmm...I'm not sure I should do this" type pause with most impulse buyers.

But the current/past price shouldn't detract from the original questions:
1. Are they viable
2. Will you replace everything you've got for GBBR's
3. Are you going to use it or just hang it on the wall

So far...(from what I've seen in this thread)
1. Yes, Maybe. Some guys are going over 100%...others will pick and choose when it hits the fields.
2. Most say no. Variable weather and reliability (function and/or performance) make these iffy.
3. HELL YEAH it'll get used.

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by m102404

You seem really definitive on the choice...why specifically?

I've seen/handled/shot the Inokatsu but not the ins-outs of it. I've never handled the AGM nor the G&P.

What are the most significant parts/points of the AGM/Ino/G&P that would make you choose it over the WE?

Thanks,

Tys

It's a easy design, nothing complicated. Also a lot of aftermarket parts for it.

Iv handle the WE, i was far from impress. Aftermarket sucks for it. The design is also more complicated.

I can tell you also, the aftermarket companies like RA-TECH are concentrating on the WA design, and not the WE.

Quick math:
Grab a AGM for ~$500 CAD
Grab a RA-TECH NPAS bolt carrier for $300 CAD (i check with ra-tech its $300 CAD shipped to you EMS express and they will declare it as a replacement part)
$800 CAD full metal, fully gamable GBBR.
$40 CAD per mags after that (shipped).

You can do the same with a 2009 Inokatsu, the only difference is its built like a tank and cost 4x more.

[manchovie]

aftermarket is not necessarily better. there were a number of aftermarket parts brands for WE but so far everything was junk even if it was precision machined and colored crazy colors (not sure about the adjustable fps system yet though, i'm praying that worked out). internally, the WE is pretty rock solid and even tricky things like spring strength was worked out before they left the factory so they don't require replacement.
the only worthwhile replacement parts are ones that have been updated by WE itself like the hop rubber, barrel, charging handle etc. and just about any part of the gun can be purchased separately from a number of retailers. externally i think i saw a bunch of custom length barrels (though the original is convertible from 14.5-10") and whatnot, the rest is as customizable as any other m4 being that it takes anything a tm barrel nut can and whatever rails and a mil stock tube can handle.
who needs aftermarket if things are under control? i'd much rather the manufacturer has their shit figured out and updates when necessary than have mistakes accumulate over multiple companies and generations of original gun.

also, just a note, i LOVE the receiver on the WE. it's nicer than any other airsoft m4 i've ever seen. nice crisp trades and lovely durable finish. nicer than the inokatsu, more realistic than the g&p.

[KoolAidMan]

But is the price justifiable ,1000+ is alot of cash to spend on something that needs some parts to make reliable from all the reviews.
I would say that the we m4 looks the most reliable out of the bunch but i would wan't further evidence that it will last and not crap out in the middle of a skirmish if i'm going to spend that kind of money.
I myself am not a impulse buyer i research alot before i make my purchases on anything I'm a muscian and i realise that going cheap isn't going to cut it , i asume the same with airsoft.
What i'm getting at is this inflation of price realy worth it.
If they are worth the price then i will be happy to pay it and will do so with a smile when the recoil hits.
Any one had expierence with the Jg gbb yet.there doesnt seem to be much information on them out .

[RacingManiac]

WA Clone, Plastic body....draw your own conclusion on that one....I guess it should be alright if you run it on duster, like the original WA was on duster.

[prepaidpwnage]

So far I've heard that the JG is pretty much a beffed up AGM with a plastic body. Here are some reviews.
http://gasguns.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1648
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forum...ic=172628&st=0

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Ronan

It's a easy design, nothing complicated. Also a lot of aftermarket parts for it.

Iv handle the WE, i was far from impress. Aftermarket sucks for it. The design is also more complicated.

I can tell you also, the aftermarket companies like RA-TECH are concentrating on the WA design, and not the WE.

The availability of aftermarket parts is not always a positive. What people should consider is whether a product can stand on itself own, or is it being propped up by a lot of other products.

The WA system is not blessed with aftermarket parts because of its popularity, on the contrary it needs all the aftermarket internal and external parts to be a viable platform because the WA system was designed to be a plastic gun running off duster. Just as crucially, WA itself has done zero refinement/revision and offers no technical support I know of.

The WE system does not need all the aftermarket internals and external parts because it was designed to be a metal gun supporting up to CO2 out of the box, and WE itself continues to refine/revise each generation so there's continuous system growth and maturity. In addition, WE offers a reasonable degree of technical support. So even if there were a ton of aftermarket parts for the WE, there still would be very few reasons to buy them. Finally, out of the box, the WE system even seems to have received some positive feedback from the mil/LE training ilk.

I'll probably one-night stand a WA, but I'll marry a WE.

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by The Saint

The availability of aftermarket parts is not always a positive. What people should consider is whether a product can stand on itself own, or is it being propped up by a lot of other products.

The WA system is not blessed with aftermarket parts because of its popularity, on the contrary it needs all the aftermarket internal and external parts to be a viable platform because the WA system was designed to be a plastic gun running off duster. Just as crucially, WA itself has done zero refinement/revision and offers no technical support I know of.

The WE system does not need all the aftermarket internals and external parts because it was designed to be a metal gun supporting up to CO2 out of the box, and WE itself continues to refine/revise each generation so there's continuous system growth and maturity. In addition, WE offers a reasonable degree of technical support. So even if there were a ton of aftermarket parts for the WE, there still would be very few reasons to buy them. Finally, out of the box, the WE system even seems to have received some positive feedback from the mil/LE training ilk.

I'll probably one-night stand a WA, but I'll marry a WE.

Consider this, WA is a Japanese company lil do they care if the outside world wants it to run on propane, it did what they're suppose to do follow the law and use duster only. WE is made in Taiwan there's few laws restricting what they can or cannot do (Eg able a shell and its bullet head exact spec as a firearm counter part)
If you want to compare Magna vs. Escort Modified use G&P WOC as the proper contender. It is not a very good comparision to use a company who have to follow alot of laws to ensure they stay in business (or the police will come and tear em down)
G&P fixed nearly ALL the problems with the Magna M4 design. There's still some problems wilth the G&P I know I can list it right now:
***Charging Handle will break, WE also has this problem
***Wobble in recievers, WE and Firearms also has this problem. The issue is addressed and theres few play between the two recieevers for serial numbers after around 1500s

So honestly you can't blame WA for doing a poor job, they did theirs. WE is expanding its area hoping to convince the people who want more realisitc and trade it for more models.

G&P will work for about 3k round before it needs to be fixed. If you want to get less problemanic Magna you need to build one from ground up basically (Its cheaper that way, and yes Im cannabilizing my WOC --probably gonna rebuild it later with a Iron Airsoft Hk416 upper to sell it)