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Would like to hear your Effective Range...

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Old August 7th, 2016, 02:45   #1
shreddybear
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
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Would like to hear your Effective Range...

What's yours? (Straight shots consistently hitting target--no arcing!)

Longtime reader, joined a little while back. I've read lots of various posts regarding the effective range people get out of their setups, but have a few questions regarding ppl's setups--I would love to hear some examples of your effective ranges, at what FPS you're at, hopup, BB weight, electric/gas, barrel specs, etc...

By Effective Range, I mean the range where you are able to consistently hit a man-sized target without arcing your gun.

Right now I'm using a Tippmann M4 (GBBR) with a 6.03 barrel. I'm shooting .3 gram BBs at about 370-380FPS (around 2 joules, chrono'd with .3s). I use the CO2 setup, which drops in pressure as the cartridge depletes. For the first 40 or so shots, I am able to reach 200ft (half a man-sized target) consistently. By the end of the cart, I'm still good to about 150ft. Safety first, alas, I keep my minimum engagement with this rifle at 50ft--I carry a lower powered sidearm for anything closer! http://msed.bbbastard.com/ATP/06-c-01.htm (A great resource regarding MEDs).

I am very into fine tuning it turns out, and wouldn't mind playing with the hopup a bit more. I've put a flat hop in mine, and saw great results, but I wonder if I could achieve similar effective ranges with LOWER velocity. I wonder if I would have to lighten my BBs to achieve this, or if perhaps the hopup has more potential than I might realize.

Anyway, I know it's easy to exaggerate in these sorts of threads, but I would really like to hear some REAL numbers (effective range) from anyone who has them. I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, or if this topic has been talked to death. I just haven't found much out there to compare to (i.e., Lots of threads talk about range, but not necessarily effective range. People have different definitions of effective range, so in this thread, I consider it to be the distance one can consistently hit a man-sized target without arcing/angling the gun, every time.)

THE GIST: What's your effective range? What effective ranges can you generally expect from lower velocities? (Say, 400 on .2s and below)

Please feel free to share, many thanks once again!
-Shreddy

Last edited by shreddybear; August 7th, 2016 at 21:11.. Reason: typos
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Old August 7th, 2016, 04:58   #2
Ranger11
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If you are shootign 2j on .3's at 370-380 FPS then you are joule creeping, right to about the same as 480 ish on .2's which isn't good.

At about 400 FPS on .3's I am hitting 260 feet with a 6.03 barrel no problem.
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Old August 7th, 2016, 09:54   #3
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Yep about 275-300 foot on a 400 ish fps gun. Once I flat or bridge hop and stick some .3 -.36 in it. Barrel doesn't really matter much as my mp5k could reach near as far as my m4 with a 455mm.
My bolt action at 500fps cam reach 500 foot range but I'd say 400 foot is likely more consistently achieved. Keep in mind that there will be arching with a bolt action. Running a flat trajectory at 200 feet is where I zero my scope. But the bb flies in an arch. Really thought to get flat AND hit long ass ranges at the fps limits we use. Now 700 fps that can fly pretty far prety flat with some .66
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Old August 7th, 2016, 12:14   #4
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Location: North Delta, BC (Greater Vancouver)
Systema PTW M4 CQB (395 FPS on 0.20g BBs/Below 1.5j)
- Turnigy-Nanotech 11.1v lipo
- Stock barrel (6.04mm)
- Green Devil 0.30g BBs (295 FPS)

= 250 plus feet consistently

Arcing BBs? That's lame. Also, make sure your gun is under energy limits for your local field. HPA units joule-creep like crazy.
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Old August 7th, 2016, 13:14   #5
ThunderCactus
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Every ptw I've hop modded (both of mine, 5 others) have a max range of 260-280ft and have an effective range of 260-280ft, all shooting 1.48-1.6j (thats 400-420fps on .20s)

260ft, 6-10" groupings
All measured out

If you have a max range of 250ft, and an effective range of 180ft, it's usually because of:
-poor quality ammo
-ammo is too light (#1 cause)
-poor compression
-barrel is fouled
-bad hop rubber
-you're shooting so damn far that you can't actually properly measure your accuracy outdoors

Your effective range should be equal to your maximum range.
And at 2j, you should be in the 300-350ft range, so clearly there's not enough hop being applied to the BB, which I think is actually a common known fault of the tippmann? I could be wrong but I think there's a mod to fix it.

Last edited by ThunderCactus; August 7th, 2016 at 13:16..
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Old August 7th, 2016, 14:02   #6
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240ft @ 1j /w .30g bb
260ft @ 1.37j /w .30g bb

All trajectories are flat, using flat hops with G&G green buckings in prometheus barrels
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I think that's the direction I should have gone with this one though.
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Old August 7th, 2016, 21:08   #7
shreddybear
 
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Thanks for sharing everyone.

I should have mentioned that I am also going for a flat trajectory (straight shot from barrel to target). I can get more range if I dial the hop in more, but then I have to aim lower for targets within. Are your trajectories flat?

Very much appreciate the detail and how fast you all chimed in. I know I'm not getting everything I can out of my setup. I will keep tinkering! Any advice or anyone with experience with the Tippmann, I'm all ears.

Thanks again everyone,
-Shreddy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger11 View Post
If you are shootign 2j on .3's at 370-380 FPS then you are joule creeping, right to about the same as 480 ish on .2's which isn't good.

At about 400 FPS on .3's I am hitting 260 feet with a 6.03 barrel no problem.
Yeah, the FPS is high. We are good with MEDs however, so it's not been an issue. If I can make a more effective hop, to actually make better use of the power, that would be great. Thanks for chiming in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectic View Post
Yep about 275-300 foot on a 400 ish fps gun. Once I flat or bridge hop and stick some .3 -.36 in it. Barrel doesn't really matter much as my mp5k could reach near as far as my m4 with a 455mm.
My bolt action at 500fps cam reach 500 foot range but I'd say 400 foot is likely more consistently achieved. Keep in mind that there will be arching with a bolt action. Running a flat trajectory at 200 feet is where I zero my scope. But the bb flies in an arch. Really thought to get flat AND hit long ass ranges at the fps limits we use. Now 700 fps that can fly pretty far prety flat with some .66
Thanks for sharing!

I've zero'd my sights to the 200ft range as well. I can have the BBs travel farther consistently if I dial the hop in more, but then I have to lower my aim for targets around the 80ft-100ft. Ideally, I'd love to get the farthest possible flat trajectory out of this thing. I don't mind the power it's at, but wouldn't want to go higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
Systema PTW M4 CQB (395 FPS on 0.20g BBs/Below 1.5j)
- Turnigy-Nanotech 11.1v lipo
- Stock barrel (6.04mm)
- Green Devil 0.30g BBs (295 FPS)

= 250 plus feet consistently

Arcing BBs? That's lame. Also, make sure your gun is under energy limits for your local field. HPA units joule-creep like crazy.
Nice, thanks for sharing.

Mostly play on a friend's farm. We follow the BB Bastard MEDs. Not arcing BBs myself until the target is beyond 200ft. I can turn the hopup a bit more to get +200ft shots, but then have to compensate for closer targets--shooting nothing within 50ft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post

Your effective range should be equal to your maximum range.
And at 2j, you should be in the 300-350ft range, so clearly there's not enough hop being applied to the BB, which I think is actually a common known fault of the tippmann? I could be wrong but I think there's a mod to fix it.
Thanks for the info!

I should have mentioned I was going for a flat trajectory. I can achieve longer distances when I dial in the hop a bit more, but then have to adjust my aiming for targets within. Do you hit those ranges with a flat trajectory?

I've actually put a flat hop in the tippmann. I think I just might not have tinkered enough with it to reach full potential. I might try some heavier bbs than .3s. Then I'll try dialing the hop in more. I wonder if the heavier ammo will help flatten the trajectory when the hop is dialed in more...

What do you mean by maximum range? It's my understanding that any maximum range would require one to arc the gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenG View Post
240ft @ 1j /w .30g bb
260ft @ 1.37j /w .30g bb

All trajectories are flat, using flat hops with G&G green buckings in prometheus barrels

Awesome, thanks!

Thanks for mentioning flat trajectory. I should have mentioned that above. That's what I'm going for anyway, the longest possible effective range with a flat trajectory.

Last edited by shreddybear; August 7th, 2016 at 21:14.. Reason: typo
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Old August 7th, 2016, 22:00   #8
ThunderCactus
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That IS with a flat trajectory. If I adjust the hop to put a hump in the path, it's closer to 280-300ft. BUT, in 10yrs, it seems every damn time I put a hump in the path, I need to hit someone right where the damn hump is, so I leave it at that flat to gentle sloping down trajectory.

Max range is subjective, but (unofficially) it's basically the furthest distance your BB can go while still aiming AT your target. So you can increase your range by increasing hop and putting a hump in the path, but I don't like to count that since you're now not able to engage a prone target at whatever range your hump is at.
It also depends on elevation, either by arcing BBs or just being higher than your target. Now my max/effective range is 260ft, BUT I've also hit someone at 350ft before by having a 100ft advantage in elevation. Mind you I was also aiming a good 40ft above their head! So I agree that doesn't count as a max range in normal circumstances.

Effective range is where you can hit a target consistently with every shot if your gun was in a vice. Human target is around 20" grouping, so once you're over that, it's beyond your effective range.
Now your effective range should ideally also be your maximum range. But some guns shoot further than they can hit. Easiest way to simulate this is by using .20s. They might fly 200ft, but they might have a 5ft grouping when they get there.


But yeah, 200ft is very poor range for .30s at 2j. You should easily be in the 300ft+ range with that. So clearly, you need a hop upgrade!

Last edited by ThunderCactus; August 7th, 2016 at 22:02..
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Old August 8th, 2016, 02:00   #9
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If you are looking at further improving your Tippmann M4's performance, the Tippmann owners group on facebook would be the best place to do it, not here unfortunately. (Not knocking the forum, its a great place!)

You should be looking to do the TDC mod (Top Dead Centre) to it, the hop up is the Tippmann's weakest component in the eyes of many. But hey, not bad for their first venture into the airsoft market.

Also, as someone has mentioned, it will perform better on HPA.

I hope you are enjoying your tippmann as much as I am!

Last edited by Syndakit; August 8th, 2016 at 02:04..
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Old August 8th, 2016, 05:29   #10
shreddybear
 
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Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
That IS with a flat trajectory. If I adjust the hop to put a hump in the path, it's closer to 280-300ft. BUT, in 10yrs, it seems every damn time I put a hump in the path, I need to hit someone right where the damn hump is, so I leave it at that flat to gentle sloping down trajectory.

Max range is subjective, but (unofficially) it's basically the furthest distance your BB can go while still aiming AT your target. So you can increase your range by increasing hop and putting a hump in the path, but I don't like to count that since you're now not able to engage a prone target at whatever range your hump is at.
It also depends on elevation, either by arcing BBs or just being higher than your target. Now my max/effective range is 260ft, BUT I've also hit someone at 350ft before by having a 100ft advantage in elevation. Mind you I was also aiming a good 40ft above their head! So I agree that doesn't count as a max range in normal circumstances.

Effective range is where you can hit a target consistently with every shot if your gun was in a vice. Human target is around 20" grouping, so once you're over that, it's beyond your effective range.
Now your effective range should ideally also be your maximum range. But some guns shoot further than they can hit. Easiest way to simulate this is by using .20s. They might fly 200ft, but they might have a 5ft grouping when they get there.


But yeah, 200ft is very poor range for .30s at 2j. You should easily be in the 300ft+ range with that. So clearly, you need a hop upgrade!
Thanks again! The flat hop isn't too bad compared to how it was stock, but I have some ideas in mind. Got a Maple Leaf bucking I've been meaning to try...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndakit View Post
If you are looking at further improving your Tippmann M4's performance, the Tippmann owners group on facebook would be the best place to do it, not here unfortunately. (Not knocking the forum, its a great place!)

You should be looking to do the TDC mod (Top Dead Centre) to it, the hop up is the Tippmann's weakest component in the eyes of many. But hey, not bad for their first venture into the airsoft market.

Also, as someone has mentioned, it will perform better on HPA.

I hope you are enjoying your tippmann as much as I am!
I certainly am! Thanks. Yeah, I've been on that page for awhile, just like to hear from others with other setups.

I'm thinking I might try the Incentive Design hopup. I don't believe any tapping is required there as they've created a fitting that basically does the same thing, but slides in and is held by the hopup screw--adjusted at the top like the TDC. I also have a Malpe Leaf bucking laying around I might try with this set up.

I've been using the 3d printed long flat hop nub. It's been a great improvement over how mine was stock, but I like to tinker and experiment, usually the results are worth it!

Thanks for posting.
-Shreddy
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Old August 8th, 2016, 09:00   #11
Syndakit
 
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I would suggest the hop off mod from Toby in the group over ID's, as it is half the price, and has a flat nub on it, which would be better for a flat hopped bucking. (ID's is rounded)

Keep in mind though, none of these will yield better results than tapping the hop up hole. People have been trying and trying, and no drop in unit performs as well as tapping does. So if you're about the most performance you can get, go that route. But I can understand if you don't want to permanently modify you gun.

Best of luck!
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Old August 8th, 2016, 21:00   #12
ThunderCactus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndakit View Post
You should be looking to do the TDC mod (Top Dead Centre) to it
YEAH that's the mod I was thinking of lol
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Old August 9th, 2016, 16:04   #13
shreddybear
 
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Thanks again

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Originally Posted by Syndakit View Post
I would suggest the hop off mod from Toby in the group over ID's, as it is half the price, and has a flat nub on it, which would be better for a flat hopped bucking. (ID's is rounded)

Keep in mind though, none of these will yield better results than tapping the hop up hole. People have been trying and trying, and no drop in unit performs as well as tapping does. So if you're about the most performance you can get, go that route. But I can understand if you don't want to permanently modify you gun.

Best of luck!
For sure, and yes, I am a bit hesitant on modding the rifle. I have read however, that they can (the unit itself) be sanded down instead. Also read a post on his (Toby's) page that said no modding had to be done for the new ones--although I'm not sure if he meant to the rifle versus the actual unit, sent him an email.

I have heard the ID units are very smooth and very easy to fine tune, which is a plus. We'll see, might go the Toby route first and see what I can do!

Thanks again for your help!

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YEAH that's the mod I was thinking of lol
Yes sir, many thanks again! Sent an email off to him to see if the new ones are mod free. I'll post back when I know.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 20:42   #14
AnthonyG
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Did some testing today, so I thought I'd post my results in an existing thread.
To get my measurements I laid out a tape measure, and measured out 300ft worth of length, then had a human target stand at the other end.

Here's what I was running:

VFC VR16
Lonex m110 spring
300mm madbull 6.03 tightbore
Lonex hop up unit
prometheus purple bucking, flat-hopped
Blue bridge tensioner

+/-400FPS on 0.2s (1.5J)
was using Elite Force 0.28 bios

At 200ft from a standing position I could consistently hit a human target. In a game scenario I'd be confident hitting a still target with a single shot.

At about 230ft it got a bit tricky. At this range the BB still had forward momentum (you could hear the sound of the impact) but my shots were dropping off, and my hop-up unit simply couldn't privide any additional spin to maintain the flight trajectory, without the BB's flying towards the sky.

I feel like my results might be a bit low, compared to some of the numbers quoted. Then again it was misting out today so maybe the water droplets had an effect on my results.
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Old October 2nd, 2016, 22:41   #15
Syndakit
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Did some testing today, so I thought I'd post my results in an existing thread.
To get my measurements I laid out a tape measure, and measured out 300ft worth of length, then had a human target stand at the other end.

Here's what I was running:

VFC VR16
Lonex m110 spring
300mm madbull 6.03 tightbore
Lonex hop up unit
prometheus purple bucking, flat-hopped
Blue bridge tensioner

+/-400FPS on 0.2s (1.5J)
was using Elite Force 0.28 bios

At 200ft from a standing position I could consistently hit a human target. In a game scenario I'd be confident hitting a still target with a single shot.

At about 230ft it got a bit tricky. At this range the BB still had forward momentum (you could hear the sound of the impact) but my shots were dropping off, and my hop-up unit simply couldn't privide any additional spin to maintain the flight trajectory, without the BB's flying towards the sky.

I feel like my results might be a bit low, compared to some of the numbers quoted. Then again it was misting out today so maybe the water droplets had an effect on my results.
I'm surprised you aren't getting more range tbh. Then again my aeg knowledge is limited. You should look into r hopping your barrel, as it is already flat hopped. Should get you even better range.
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