Crazy Hi Torque Gearbox From Scratch

[Dragate]

Making one of these worth it?

I have a few questions on brands of gearboxes and stuff: (and to make your life easier since I have sooooooooo many questions, I'll bold/underline important points I really want answered)

First off the shell. There's those CNC ones, reinforced blah blah blah... I'm so lost on this. I know you only need a really good quality gearbox to withstand higher tension springs, which I won't be using. I'll be using Modify s90 and s100 (330 fps, 365 fps, respectively). And I also want to use modify gear sets. I guess I would need reinforced for the SMOOTH ones, and normal for open gearboxes. I'll be getting high torque in hope of low trigger lag and not crazy rof.

On the same note, I want my rof to be about 11-16 rps max. (building m4, I want it to be kinda realistic, and not run out on real caps so fast).

So which gearbox would be a really nice one? Yes I would like a bit of kicks too =] I don't mind coloured ones liek the CNC one on ebaybanned or prowin blue ones. Thing is I dont' really trust ebaybanned anymore since it is HK after all. Unless someone really experienced knows the gearbox is really turst worthy, I don't think I'm gonna get it. ;P

Since I'm going to get modify gears, should I get poly pistons? I was told that metal gears and metal teeth = shavings. How about the reinforced ones with only first tooth alluminum? Or half the teeth metal? No idea waht would be good... And how about brands? I think most of my internals will end up to be modify, would it be safe to just stick with modify? But I want pretty high state of the art stuff, so maybe systema or prometheus? Unless it doesn't really make a difference...

Piston comes with a piston head. I'm for sure getting the bearings head ones, but I"m not sure if I should get ones with pre installed sorbo pads or just get the modify CNC aircraft metal one then buy a sorbo pad and install it on myself? Has anyone used either of them? I would think CNC metal with aircraft metal sounds pretty good haha...

Inside the piston is the spring, and itself is held by a spring guide. I'm thinking of getting the rotary bearing one from modify. Looks awesome! any objections? XD

Outside the piston is the cylinder. Does teflon make a difference? I'm guessing it would be pretty smart to match brands on cylinder and piston eh?
No, yes? I'm gonna be using this mechbox on a m4, with not the stock 363 carbine length, but more around 16-17" ( around 450 mm ) Because I wanna use the 16 " outer barrel and a really nice flashhider with the inner barrel almost flush to the end of the flashhider so you can see that nice prometheus chrome inside the flashhider =] Plus taht's also like a 45mm increase in inner barrel lenght, which will improve groupings a bit ( I heard it was around 50mm to get significant improvement).
Because of this around 90mm incrase in length, should I be worried about boreup?

For the piston head, I"m thinking of bearings again... lol How about the brand? I'm still edging towards modify unless someone puts in a good word for another one...

For the airnozzel i'm gonna get modify with o ring, I doubt there's much to be improved here... no? XD
=]

Since bearings, shims are taken care of by modify with their amazing gears already, and even comes with anti reversal, it makes my life so much easier.
For the tappet plate, I heard it doesn't make much of a difference what u get, just wanna get higher durability? What's a really good tappet?
How about for selector plate. I know systema has a low res one. Would this help in trigger lag/half cranked pistons?

I guess cut off levers and saftey switch covers don't matter much. Have my mind on modify again.

How about those gear sector clips? Will it slow anythign down in the gearbox? Or just help in misfeeding...?

For the wiring and switch assembly, I'm pretty clueless. I think I saw somewhere that your awg/guage should be lower for lower resistance? Or should I just like a KA low resistance rear wired switch assmbly?

On that note, I'm looking to have a lipo in the stock buffer tube. Does this mean I should get a b type metal body? ( shorter prong on the end of the metal body at the back ) Because I doubt the wiring and the battery can both fit into a lot of the prong... ? I know a lot of ppl dont' ahve a lot experience with lipos :P But, If you were to have a 11.1v 2000mAH lipo and NiMH, the lipo would outlast the normal one right? How about for 7.4v ones? Becuase I want my battery to last, and don't really care about rof, but only about trigger response, should I get like 7.4 instead of 11.1? And no, I don't really mind fps... so that's tottal irrevelant for me.

And earlier I said I would use a prometheus barrel, because i've heard lots of good stuff about them. How about the tanio koba twist barrels? Somethign about a spiral of air around a backspinning bb... haha sounds so intense... Does it acutally make a difference in comparison to prometheus innerbarrel bb flight?

For motor... I guess I want a hi torque, cuz I don't want my motor speeidng up since I'm not gonna be spraying so much... I want it to just be on top of it's game on semi too. From EG700, CA/ICS motors, G&P, Systema (turbo!?!?!) Which is a good motor? I want a really silent one (less buzzing electric sounds plz... I REALLY hate that sound). I was told the Systema turbos will be too strong...? Also told TMs will be quietest motors...
Need some major help on this one :P

I'm currently thinking of a magpul pts miad full grip w.e thing... The motor plate for the magpul, is it heatsink/low noise? I have a G&P gun right now with a heatsink motor plate, and I nkow systema have low noise heatsinks...

THANK YOU FOR UR TIMEEE!!
Lol insanely long post of quetions~~~ Will be very grateful for answers =]

[m102404]

WOW...lots of stuff there....

Short answer: Buy a G&P Complete M120 mechbox...reshim, swap spring. Swapping the piston is optional. (you can paint it pink if you need to ). You'll save yourself a heap of time and headaches with the little springs, screws and other bits and pieces. And you'll have a working baseline to compare the performance of each of your upgrade parts against.

Long answer:

Prometheus or PPM (might be PPA...but they're the same Prometheus parts before they're branded Prometheus) pistons are nice. Stay away from aluminum pistons and aluminum piston heads.

I personally have always liked the Systema Silen Head sets...but a lot of guys seem to go for the Sorbothane stuff.

I've used aluminum, brass, SS and teflon cylinders....personally, the plain old brass ones work just fine (actually, the aluminum one worked the best and is still going strong). Not as flashy as the SS or Systema Teflon ones...

No need for a bore up kit in that setup....but watch your cylinder porting.

Modify Airseal nozzle is fine. Modify bearing spring guide is fine. I have lots of setups that have both a bearing spring guide and a bearing piston head. Use Modify springs and there'll be no issues with the spring being too long. Modify tappets are fine. Selector plates have little impact on performance...so KA switches do not have exposed contact fingers.

14AWG is a very tight fit...16AWG is still a tight fit especially if the insulation is thick...18AWG seems to fit no prob. DEANs connectors are great.

Sector chips/timing chips help by holding the nozzle back a little longer per shot to allow mags to feed bbs in high ROF setups. (I think the G&P complete mechbox comes with one).

With AEGs...the "trigger lag" and ROF go hand in hand. With a quick trigger response (i.e. from when you complete the trigger pull to when it shoots) you'll end up with a high ROF.

Use a large 7.2 or 8.4 NiCad/NiMh battery...that may give you what you're looking for...but not so good for a stock tube setup. A 7.4 LiPo "sounds/feels" like a large 8.4v or a 9.6v mini. The long or short body stub doesn't matter (i.e. just cut a long one shorter...)...the limiting factor is the stopper inside the stock tube. KA makes one that is "deeper"...but get in line, the next one is mine.

TM EG700 or 1000 will be fine. Guarder Infinite Torque Up are great for the price. G&P M120 are good. Systema Magnums are great but expensive. If I was scratch building I'd put a Guarder in it.

The Magpul MOE grip is very nice....it's not going to impact the noise level...the most noise will come from the motor pinion to gear setup/adjustment....and the rest of the gear set.

Best of luck, hope it turns out well.

Tys

[Dragate]

Originally Posted by m102404

WOW...lots of stuff there....

Short answer: Buy a G&P Complete M120 mechbox...reshim, swap spring. Swapping the piston is optional. (you can paint it pink if you need to )

With AEGs...the "trigger lag" and ROF go hand in hand. With a quick trigger response (i.e. from when you complete the trigger pull to when it shoots) you'll end up with a high ROF.

Use a large 7.2 or 8.4 battery...that may give you what you're looking for.

ya took me quite some time to write that haha...

Hm... I'm kinda a tinkerer =] So I would very much like to build one of the BEST gearboxes from all different parts haha.
Damn... I really want little trigger lag and low rof haha. What about if I got one of those mosfets and control my rof? Would I still have low trigger lag?

Large batteries wont' really fit anywhere haha. I'm not a fan of peq boxes. I want a crt stock so I would really like it to fit in the buffer tube =] (lipo!) haha

thanks ~ =]

[m102404]

I went back and added more to my first post.

DonP's mosfets are great. The active breaking and softstart will setup your semiauto shot to shot consistency really nicely. You're switch assembly will last forever.

You can control the motor speed with those mostfets....but as you slow it down your ROF will drop...but so will your trigger response.

You can use the 3rd burst function of the mosfet to help with the full auto fire. It really does work and seems to prevent the insta-empty of a mag with a high ROF rifle.

Tys

[ILLusion]

1) I use to build gearboxes all the time. It's a lot of headache, a lot of sweat, a lot of tears, a lot of cursing, and a lot of money, but when you build a really nice gearbox, you can't help but smile at the result. If you do it RIGHT, it will be satisfying. However, it's been a while since I built a complete one from the ground up, because it's just been more economical for people to just buy a pre-built gearbox. Even a high quality complete Systema gearbox is cheaper than trying to build one yourself from mediocre parts. And Pro-Win gearboxes are nice... but unless you have the need to do quick spring swaps or have the ability to split your gun in half, it's added expense. A Pro-Win setup completely upgraded with top-of-the-line parts, including installation labour can easily run you over $1000. That doesn't include the metal body you'll need to get for it. Labour will include hacking up your metal body to accept it.

2) If you go ultra high torque, you're going to have low ROF unless you use very high voltage battery to counter the ROF reduction. If you have low ROF, then you will also have high trigger lag. Trigger lag is a function of how fast the gears rotate, so if your ROF is low, you're just going to have trigger lag. You can't have low trigger lag AND low ROF.

3) For your velocity, most mechbox shells are fine. Unless you're after some particular feature (such as quick spring swaps), then there's no need to get them. You'll be fine with the stock Tokyo Marui shell up to 380fps. Otherwise, the price goes up dramatically, especially if you get a Pro-Win. (note: I don't think Modify gears will fit in to a Pro-Win anyways)

4) Yes, get a polycarbonate piston. DON'T get an aluminum piston. It's very rare to see aluminum pistons in use nowadays because of the numerous downsides they carry. Don't get a piston with aluminum teeth (do they even exist? I don't think they do.) Half the teeth being steel is fine. I like the Prometheus oness, I've never had a problem with them, but they are pricey.

5) Piston heads: Get a synthetic one. No metal piston heads unless you have a gearbox that can handle it (Pro-Win.) I've personally always liked the Systema Silent Head Sets, as they're the most performance effective and overall most cost effective for combined damping power and performance. If you want the ULTIMATE damping power and truly silent performance, get an Angel silent head set. The damping performance of the Angel silent head set is miles ahead of any Sorbo or Systema solution.

6) Modify spring guide should be fine. It's really hard to get a bad spring guide.

7) No need to match brands on cylinder and piston. Systema cylinder is a good baseline. Modify ones look okay, but I haven't tried them. Prometheus ones are expensive, but nice. Top of the line ones are KM TN taper cylinders, which are really nice, but expensive. They have minimal friction due to the lack of any porting on them, as well as KM's patented TN coating. No need to get bore up. It is not necessary for your application, just get the cylinder size appropriate for your length. (450 mm is close to an AK-47, which is 455mm). More expensive ones have ribs that act like a heat sink to dissipate heat built up through friction in ultra high ROF setups. Coated/plated cylinders last longer and are less prone to oxidation such as the standard brass ones. Although, a really expensive one versus a standard plain jane brass one will perform pretty much exactly the same in the beginning. However, as a brass cylinder ages, it will lose its luster and shine and the polished will become rough and scratchy. It will affect performance.

8) Air nozzle: I recommend to always match brands with the cylinder head

9) Can't really go wrong with the tappet. Modify is fine. Systema is fine. Guarder is fine.

10) You can't go wrong with your selector plate. Prometheus, Systema, Modify all have low resistance ones, but it's not necessary for your setup. It will not improve trigger lag. If anything, get an aftermarket one that has a wider bearing channel to accept 7mm bearings (if you decide to go 7mm)

11) Sector gear clips will not slow performance down. It just changes the timing of things a bit. I'm not even sure if you can install it inside a Modify gear cage. All sector gear chips are used for is if you have an ultra high ROF setup, it changes the timing so that the nozzle is held open for a fraction of a second longer so the BB can reliably feed in to the chamber before being pushed in to battery. It helps reduce misfeeding in high ROF setups.

12) Wiring: The lower the AWG, the fatter the wire. The fatter the wire, the more current can be pushed. The fatter the wire, the less the internal resistance. The less internal resistance, the higher your potential ROF. Of course, there is a limit. 1AWG wire will be thicker than your gearbox itself. 18AWG is the standard gauge. 14AWG is a fair bit thicker and may have some problems fitting in to some gearboxes. Depending on your pistol grip, you may have some problems snaking thicker wire around your motor. I usually use Prometheus silicone wiring for lowered resistance while maintaining a smaller size. It's an added expense, though. For your setup, unless you're going in no holds barred, you'll be fine with stock wiring.

13) Switch assembly: It's hard to go wrong with that, just get one from a quality brand. KA is okay.

14) If you're going lipo, it's probably a better idea to get a metal body with a shorter buffer tube mount if you want to be able to completely collapse your stock. But that also means you'll have to get a G&P buffer tube to match. They're pretty easy to get.

15) Again, you can't not care for ROF if you want really fast trigger response. If you want really fast trigger response, you're going to have a very high ROF. YOU WILL NEED TO MAKE A COMPROMISE if you choose extreme ends! Otherwise, be like normal people and meet somewhere in the middle. lol

16) If your setup is at 330fps and you WON'T go any higher, then you would be better off with the Tanio Koba Twist barrel. If you go any higher than 330fps, then you'll have to stick with Prometheus. End of story.

17) You don't need high torque motor for your application. A standard Marui EG1000 is fine. If you hate the sewing machine *zip* sound, get good quality helical gears mated to large bearings. The motor won't help you much in that regard. I don't have any experience with Modify gear sets, so I can't say if their high torque models are helical or not.

[Dragate]

Originally Posted by m102404

No need for a bore up kit in that setup....but watch your cylinder porting.

Hm, I've herad of the porting, not exactly sure. Is that the location of the hole cut into the cylinder?

Originally Posted by ILLusion

7) No need to match brands on cylinder and piston. Systema cylinder is a good baseline. Modify ones look okay, but I haven't tried them. Prometheus ones are expensive, but nice. Top of the line ones are KM TN taper cylinders, which are really nice, but expensive. They have minimal friction due to the lack of any porting on them, as well as KM's patented TN coating. No need to get bore up. It is not necessary for your application, just get the cylinder size appropriate for your length. (450 mm is close to an AK-47, which is 455mm). More expensive ones have ribs that act like a heat sink to dissipate heat built up through friction in ultra high ROF setups. Coated/plated cylinders last longer and are less prone to oxidation such as the standard brass ones. Although, a really expensive one versus a standard plain jane brass one will perform pretty much exactly the same in the beginning. However, as a brass cylinder ages, it will lose its luster and shine and the polished will become rough and scratchy. It will affect performance.

Ah, so if I'm gonna stick to max 20 rps, I doubt I'll need those coatings, eh? Maybe an alluminum one just so that it doens't oxidize?

Originally Posted by m102404

With AEGs...the "trigger lag" and ROF go hand in hand. With a quick trigger response (i.e. from when you complete the trigger pull to when it shoots) you'll end up with a high ROF.

Originally Posted by ILLusion

2) If you go ultra high torque, you're going to have low ROF unless you use very high voltage battery to counter the ROF reduction. If you have low ROF, then you will also have high trigger lag. Trigger lag is a function of how fast the gears rotate, so if your ROF is low, you're just going to have trigger lag. You can't have low trigger lag AND low ROF.

Do not like this concept... LOL

Originally Posted by m102404

the limiting factor is the stopper inside the stock tube. KA makes one that is "deeper"...but get in line, the next one is mine.

Hm... never heard of/seen these. I'll search it up. Haha, are you getting off of juggz?

Originally Posted by m102404

TM EG700 or 1000 will be fine. Guarder Infinite Torque Up are great for the price. G&P M120 are good. Systema Magnums are great but expensive. If I was scratch building I'd put a Guarder in it.

Originally Posted by ILLusion

17) You don't need high torque motor for your application. A standard Marui EG1000 is fine. If you hate the sewing machine *zip* sound, get good quality helical gears mated to large bearings. The motor won't help you much in that regard. I don't have any experience with Modify gear sets, so I can't say if their high torque models are helical or not.

So the zip sounds are comming from the transfer of energy between the gears and piston to sound energy? Not so much the motor?

Originally Posted by m102404

The Magpul MOE grip is very nice....it's not going to impact the noise level...the most noise will come from the motor pinion to gear setup/adjustment....and the rest of the gear set.

Hm... which type of gears reduce the most noise?

Originally Posted by m102404

You can control the motor speed with those mostfets....but as you slow it down your ROF will drop...but so will your trigger response.

fuck lol

Originally Posted by m102404

You can use the 3rd burst function of the mosfet to help with the full auto fire. It really does work and seems to prevent the insta-empty of a mag with a high ROF rifle.

Ya... that seems like one way to handle things, but it makes things quite complicated... I think I can probabaly control my fire rather than get 3 round burst. =S

Originally Posted by ILLusion

3) For your velocity, most mechbox shells are fine. Unless you're after some particular feature (such as quick spring swaps), then there's no need to get them. You'll be fine with the stock Tokyo Marui shell up to 380fps. Otherwise, the price goes up dramatically, especially if you get a Pro-Win. (note: I don't think Modify gears will fit in to a Pro-Win anyways)

Hm, then if I don't need the extra durability, is there any other factors in the mechboxes other than strength? And bearing/bushing sizes? And no, I won't be changing springs a lot...

Originally Posted by ILLusion

4) Yes, get a polycarbonate piston. DON'T get an aluminum piston. It's very rare to see aluminum pistons in use nowadays because of the numerous downsides they carry. Don't get a piston with aluminum teeth (do they even exist? I don't think they do.) Half the teeth being steel is fine. I like the Prometheus oness, I've never had a problem with them, but they are pricey.

Sorry, I meant to say titanium teeth...
I heard cuz it's harder than the gears, it will cause lots of wear...

Originally Posted by ILLusion

5) Piston heads: Get a synthetic one. No metal piston heads unless you have a gearbox that can handle it (Pro-Win.) I've personally always liked the Systema Silent Head Sets, as they're the most performance effective and overall most cost effective for combined damping power and performance. If you want the ULTIMATE damping power and truly silent performance, get an Angel silent head set. The damping performance of the Angel silent head set is miles ahead of any Sorbo or Systema solution.

Is it true for like systema silent heads you need to match cylinder head?
ALso, I'm not so caring about the sound of the like bam of the piston hitting the cylinder head. I just don't like that zip sound and am considering sorbo pads purely for durability. Unless, more zip sounds come from the piston/cylinder movment too?

Originally Posted by ILLusion

16) If your setup is at 330fps and you WON'T go any higher, then you would be better off with the Tanio Koba Twist barrel. If you go any higher than 330fps, then you'll have to stick with Prometheus. End of story.

Which flight would be relitively longer... 330 fps with tanio koba twist, or like close to 400 with prometheus? How about groupings... like does the twisting ball of air actually help it?
Cuz if they're pretty much the same, then I think I'd rather get taniokoba so taht in outdoor games I'll still have the same bb range, and indoor my fps will be low enough. XD

and... THANKS DD!! a lot ~~~~

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm, I've herad of the porting, not exactly sure. Is that the location of the hole cut into the cylinder?

Yes

Originally Posted by Dragate

Ah, so if I'm gonna stick to max 20 rps, I doubt I'll need those coatings, eh? Maybe an alluminum one just so that it doens't oxidize?

I'm not sure who sells aluminum ones. Just stick to a polished one that's plated to prevent corrosion

Originally Posted by Dragate

Do not like this concept... LOL

It's not a concept, it's basic physics. It's reality.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm... never heard of/seen these. I'll search it up. Haha, are you getting off of juggz?

G&P makes it too. I can also order that for you if you need.

Originally Posted by Dragate

So the zip sounds are comming from the transfer of energy between the gears and piston to sound energy? Not so much the motor?

Yes, the sound is mostly the sound of the gear teeth engaging each other. Helical gears don't have this sound as much.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm... which type of gears reduce the most noise?

See above.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm, then if I don't need the extra durability, is there any other factors in the mechboxes other than strength? And bearing/bushing sizes? And no, I won't be changing springs a lot...

Well... yes. Like I said, quick spring swap ability, spring tension release levers, the ability to split the gun/gearbox for storage, etc.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Sorry, I meant to say titanium teeth...
I heard cuz it's harder than the gears, it will cause lots of wear...

If you're mashing two materials together, it's common sense that the softer of the two materials would wear down first. Right? Titanium has a high strength to weight ratio, but steel can still be harder than titanium (depending on what grade of steel), which means the titanium teeth would still fail against steel gear teeth. It would just take longer to fail. Anyways, in your scenario, I wouldn't worry too much about that - you should be able to get by with a standard polycarbonate piston just fine.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Is it true for like systema silent heads you need to match cylinder head?
ALso, I'm not so caring about the sound of the like bam of the piston hitting the cylinder head. I just don't like that zip sound and am considering sorbo pads purely for durability. Unless, more zip sounds come from the piston/cylinder movment too?

Systema and Angel Silent Head Sets is a HEAD SET. That means it comes with the silent piston head AND a matching silent cylinder head.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Which flight would be relitively longer... 330 fps with tanio koba twist, or like close to 400 with prometheus? How about groupings... like does the twisting ball of air actually help it?
Cuz if they're pretty much the same, then I think I'd rather get taniokoba so taht in outdoor games I'll still have the same bb range, and indoor my fps will be low enough. XD

400 with a Prometheus would have a longer effective range, but that gun won't be usable at most indoors games in Ontario and even across the country. Consider what that particular gun is going to be used for.

[Dragate]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

I'm not sure who sells aluminum ones. Just stick to a polished one that's plated to prevent corrosion

Hm, if you were to compare the taper KM ones to a systema n-b electroylezed ones, which one would have less friction?

Originally Posted by ILLusion

G&P makes it too. I can also order that for you if you need.

I found a special one on ehobby, it says it's made for lipos in the buffer tube, I'm guessing it will be a bit thinner to have more space inside? Or deeper... Unless G&P has the same one:
http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/catalog/p.../category/152/
And are you able to get your hands on a G&P body b type? XD haha I know redwolf and EVIKE (bad reviews recently) have them :P

Originally Posted by ILLusion

Yes, the sound is mostly the sound of the gear teeth engaging each other. Helical gears don't have this sound as much.

Hm... I guess I will be getting helical gears then. Juggz has some hurricane ones. But I hear everyone says SYSTEMA HELICAL, never hurricane lol. In terms of sound and durability, how do these two compare, if you know?

Originally Posted by ILLusion

Well... yes. Like I said, quick spring swap ability, spring tension release levers, the ability to split the gun/gearbox for storage, etc.

I guess these really don't matter to me... I guess any reinforced one will do. How about the CNC ones, will they be a lot stronger then say a G&P reinforced gearbox shell?
http://ebaybanned.com/product_info.p...oducts_id=1517

Originally Posted by ILLusion

If you're mashing two materials together, it's common sense that the softer of the two materials would wear down first. Right? Titanium has a high strength to weight ratio, but steel can still be harder than titanium (depending on what grade of steel), which means the titanium teeth would still fail against steel gear teeth. It would just take longer to fail. Anyways, in your scenario, I wouldn't worry too much about that - you should be able to get by with a standard polycarbonate piston just fine.

Hm... Alright. If you were to compare polycarb and POM, which one would be better? haha. How about if one last tooth is reinforced? Would that kill the gears at all? Plus I heard those half teeth(not half reinforced) are for helical gears, but then some other ppl say it's for hi torque... I'm pretty confused.
From full out metal teeth, to half, 3 and 1, which do you think is best for around 400 fps?
In that note, I guess I would really like a metal piston with polycarb teeth LOL! haha if only it existed
Also, I heard somewhere the RED systema pistons have badly placed teeth or something? I know on ehobby asia has a cylinder set with silent cylinder and piston head set and red piston >>
But again, I don't wanan kill the striking sound, if that's waht it does :P

Originally Posted by ILLusion

Systema and Angel Silent Head Sets is a HEAD SET. That means it comes with the silent piston head AND a matching silent cylinder head.

Hm, thing is I really hate the zip sound, but I really don't mind the bam sound of the piston head striking the cylinder head. If I would want more of this sound, a metal one would be better right? But I know that you're supposed to stay away from metal piston heads for durability of gearbox. If I wanted to get louder striking sound, and persay it means to get a metal piston head, should I be worried about anything else's durability other than the piston head and cylinder head?

Originally Posted by ILLusion

400 with a Prometheus would have a longer effective range, but that gun won't be usable at most indoors games in Ontario and even across the country. Consider what that particular gun is going to be used for.

Ya I just kinda made up my mind after you said that. Pretty simple but ya haha didn't think of it that way. I will have a really nice mp5 soon at around 330 fps, but I think it'd be kind silly to use a carbine m4 in cqb lol... Plus I really like the look of 407mm prometheus barrels on carbine models (a bit of nice chrome showing under the falshhider). I guess I could upgrade a tanio koba inside my mp5 instead in case I woudl want to field it outdoors. A mp5 hopup and a tanio koba = pwnage =]
plus you ahve those nice firefly buckings and rubbers, righ? =]
So for close to 400 fps, but not over, I guess m120 would do it, becuase the modify s100 is 369 but then the s110 is like 410... kinda dumb imo

And again, Illusion, thanks for putting up with my noobiness :P

Oh... one last thing. I have a G&P M120 atm. I kinda wanna sell it and start ALL OVER, but then again I could just start with it. With the stuff I've kinda stated I want, do you think it's cheaper to start new or use current?
I'm selling for around 200 bux.
And about the motor, I have a G&P m120 hi speed running the m120 gearbox around 23 rps. With the hi torque gears, would it turn the rps to around 15? Or should I just get a EG700, plus I like the sound of the EG700(least sound! )

***THANKS THANKS THANKS~!!!!***

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm, if you were to compare the taper KM ones to a systema n-b electroylezed ones, which one would have less friction?

The KM ones *feel* slicker... whether it actually is or not, I have no quantitative proof. They just felt slicker to me, which is why I chose them. Plus the lack of a port really made the transition from open seal to closed seal much smoother in my mind.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm... I guess I will be getting helical gears then. Juggz has some hurricane ones. But I hear everyone says SYSTEMA HELICAL, never hurricane lol. In terms of sound and durability, how do these two compare, if you know?

Systema is better than Hurricane. Prometheus is better than Systema. I almost always use Prometheus gears in my own guns.

Originally Posted by Dragate

I guess these really don't matter to me... I guess any reinforced one will do. How about the CNC ones, will they be a lot stronger then say a G&P reinforced gearbox shell?
http://ebaybanned.com/product_info.p...oducts_id=1517

It should be stronger, as they are machined from a billet of 7075 aluminum, rather than die-cast from a zinc-aluminum alloy. Die cast metals tend to be much weaker due to the porous nature of the compound, which is why they break all the time. But honestly, at the velocity you're shooting, you shouldn't even have to be concerned with this . You can get by just fine with even a Tokyo Marui gearbox. And if you're that concerned with durability, all you need is sorbo or a silent head set. Again, top end protection is provided by the Angel Silent Head Sets. Note: If you use ANY type of die cast gearbox with a metal piston head, it doesn't matter what spring you use, you could be using a bone stock Tokyo Marui spring shooting 270fps, but if you keep shooting that metal piston head through that gearbox, you WILL break it, especially if you do lots of dry firing in cold weather.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm... Alright. If you were to compare polycarb and POM, which one would be better? haha. How about if one last tooth is reinforced? Would that kill the gears at all? Plus I heard those half teeth(not half reinforced) are for helical gears, but then some other ppl say it's for hi torque... I'm pretty confused.
From full out metal teeth, to half, 3 and 1, which do you think is best for around 400 fps?
In that note, I guess I would really like a metal piston with polycarb teeth LOL! haha if only it existed
Also, I heard somewhere the RED systema pistons have badly placed teeth or something? I know on ehobby asia has a cylinder set with silent cylinder and piston head set and red piston >>
But again, I don't wanan kill the striking sound, if that's waht it does :P

"POM" is a resin material, more commonly known in the US as Delrin. Some pistons are also sold under POM/Delrin's other name: Polyacetal or acetal resin. The material features the properties of light weight, low-friction and wear-resistance while being capable of operating in high temperatures.
Polycarbonates are good against extreme temperatures, impact resistance, etc.
It's hard to compare the two materials on their own, as it also depends on how the final product is engineered. I've noticed POM seems to be a bit better against wear than polycarbonates.
I would put the Prometheus piston near the very top of the list of best pistons to get. I haven't used anything that I like better, yet.

No, your gears would not be killed if one last tooth is reinforced. I don't see why it would. The Prometheus piston's last SEVEN teeth are steel.

Don't worry about half tooth pistons. You don't need it. They are reserved only for ultra high torque gear sets. Nobody in their right mind would build a skirmishing gun in Canada that would require that type of a gear set.

Forget steel tooth count. Just get a good piston. Prometheus. End of story. The Modify one looks good too, but I haven't tried it yet.

Wherever you read that the Systema red pistons have badly placed teeth must have been information at least 7 years old. Systema changed the tooth placement 6 years ago. Most people continue to screw up their pistons due to poor choices in parts mixing. You just read more bad press about Systema because more of them were sold across the world than any other brand, as they are the known "de-facto" standard. They have a reputation to be good and the originators of consistent quality AEG upgrade components. People expect them to be invincible, but they're not. Especially if you have poor parts mixing. I have a 7 year old red Systema piston, well over 30k rounds through it and it barely shows any wear. And guess what? It's even one of the "badly placed teeth" ones. Truth is, it was purposely put in that position for a reason. Problem was, people were mixing improper parts and kept destroying their setup. So many people kept screwing it up that Systema finally changed the final tooth placement to standard specification which reduced a lot of "problems." When Systema had originally engineered their products, it was with the intention that they were only to be installed by Systema-trained technicians who actually KNEW what they were doing. But as it turns out, the market doesn't work that way, so Systema started to change things to meet the masses in the middle.

You'll find bad reviews of every single brand of piston in existance. You just have to consider the source and conditions behind the cause of failure. If you look hard enough, you'll find any type of review you want to support any opinion on any product you want.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Hm, thing is I really hate the zip sound, but I really don't mind the bam sound of the piston head striking the cylinder head. If I would want more of this sound, a metal one would be better right? But I know that you're supposed to stay away from metal piston heads for durability of gearbox. If I wanted to get louder striking sound, and persay it means to get a metal piston head, should I be worried about anything else's durability other than the piston head and cylinder head?

If you HAVE to use a metal piston head, I'd suggest keeping your gun to 350fps or less, unless you use a very high quality CNC machined gearbox. If you really want to go nuts, try and hunt down a Systema Hard Recoil Kit.
Durability worries are in your gearbox cracking. Not in the piston head breaking. If you continue shooting the guns with the gearbox cracked, you could also destroy your piston and possibly even your gears.

Originally Posted by Dragate

plus you ahve those nice firefly buckings and rubbers, righ? =]

Like I told you before, those Firefly Hop Up rubbers I have in stock are for GBBs.

AEGs require different hop up rubbers. They'd have to be ordered in.

Originally Posted by Dragate

Oh... one last thing. I have a G&P M120 atm. I kinda wanna sell it and start ALL OVER, but then again I could just start with it. With the stuff I've kinda stated I want, do you think it's cheaper to start new or use current?
I'm selling for around 200 bux.

You're fine with just upgrading it as it is. Otherwise you're going to have to go on a hunt for all the other small parts, and with the minimal bit of experience you have, you're not going to know what to look for, and by the time you figure it out, order it, wait for it to come in, install it only to find out that there's something else you're missing, it'll take you half a year before you finish this project.

Originally Posted by Dragate

And about the motor, I have a G&P m120 hi speed running the m120 gearbox around 23 rps. With the hi torque gears, would it turn the rps to around 15? Or should I just get a EG700, plus I like the sound of the EG700(least sound! )

RPS is dependent on many MANY conditions. Even the ambient room temperature and stored temperature of your battery affects output. You might as well be asking me how many shots you'll get out of your battery. Nobody can answer that. You'll just have to build it and find out for yourself, or acquire a bunch of motors and just TRY IT. YOU TELL US.

Spoon feeding over.

[ILLusion]

PS, you really should read the upgrade guide, stickied to the top of this forum... a lot of this stuff has already been covered in there.

Numerous times.


Why do I need to upgrade (or not) - with explanations! - Airsoft Canada

[Dragate]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

PS, you really should read the upgrade guide, stickied to the top of this forum... a lot of this stuff has already been covered in there.

Numerous times.


Why do I need to upgrade (or not) - with explanations! - Airsoft Canada

thanks,~

but i actually read that 2 times before posting this. A lot of the questions I have are basically build up of his questions, not many of my questions are actually covered by that guide.

I've been looking on airsoftmechanics.com now and I've gotten lots of answers =]
Also they have a great piston review, about 15 pistons reviewd with a M140 and M150 for 1k rounds. In their tests without the 2nd tooth removed on the prometheus hard, it actually did the worst... by far... haha
Makes you think twice.
I think it maybe some inconsistencies in the test becuase the systema and prometheus polycarbs were tested last and the results got exponentially worse. (I'm thinking other failures leading to piston failure and not the other way around) This is because they did a Guarder polycarb piston as the 3rd test and it worked out flawlessly. They're gonna run the same pistons another 1k rounds soon again. I lookforward to seeing it haha.

[ILLusion]

Hmm... I've always removed the 2nd tooth anyways as a precaution. Maybe that's why I've never had a problem with it...

[Dragate]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

Hmm... I've always removed the 2nd tooth anyways as a precaution. Maybe that's why I've never had a problem with it...

ya, seriously tho, the 1k round testing on M140 absolutely destroyed the piston. I think the 2nd and third teeth were tottaly gone, and stopped the gearbox.
They retested the prometheus hard with 2nd tooth removed and it did so much better, but still not as good as the nylon/polyamide ones.

[ILLusion]

I just made an edit to post #9. I was incorrect about POM being a polycarbonate. It's not the same thing, and they both do have different properties. It's still hard to compare the two as materials, though, as the property of the final product is dependent on how it is engineered.

[Dragate]

Well, doesn't really matter.

I've concluded that for piston heads, as long as it's not metal it's good. Match up your cyilinder heads and air nozzle.

For cylinders, reviews are madly mixed. Some say teflon is best, some say KM's TN coating is best and some say coats suck because the flake and just get electroylzed plating lol. Plating being the cheapest and TN coating the most expensive...

Illusion, do you think the TN coatings are better then the brass/w.e platings? XD I guess it doesn't matter THAT much which one i'm getting cuz I'm only aiming for durability with a M120 spring, and 15 rps? lol But since I'm getting everythign already, why cheap out on this? Another 10 usd is nothing now haha.

Get a nice solid piston, remove 1,2... w.e ammount of teeth to correct AOE, maybe short stroke 1 tooth off for higher rofs. (actually I'm still really debating over Prometheus hard piston or G&P polycateal or just go with a random modify one haha)

If you are to build gearbox tottaly, most of the small parts don't really matter, except for maybe easy of installing a anti reversal latch, for which modify's new e ring design is best, and cheap.

Also concluded that prometheus gears have the best rep. Element, usually known for being pretty much crap are rising in rep and ya. Get helicals for low whine, but be espcially careful on the shimming. Also, for low whine you must properly shim the bevel gear to the motor pinion. Also for lowest motor sounds, some say the EG700 and some say Systema turbos, but they require pinion head replacement, probabaly guarder.

Modify modular gear sets work for some gearboxes and when they do they're nice. Just no bearings, but has oil channels in the bushings. Apparently they have a nice sound too, liek the angle sets. But then again me being a total theory guy, I can't verify haha.

and for shells, KA has quite a few broken ones, compared to G&P and systema. Then again, there's those haynes if we ever get lucky for another promotion run at like almost 200 usd lolzzz...