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Old September 20th, 2013, 14:22   #136
hattrick
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Here ya go brian. http://www.tokyo-marui.co.jp/news/m870/ right off their homepage

But I'm sure they'll fix it, even the "legendary" tm 5.1 had a problem upon first release iirc (propane blowing out the bbu or something i don't remember)
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Old September 20th, 2013, 15:05   #137
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I do not contest there are some group of hard-core TM fans, who will never buy any other product, but TM. But I do not think this group is dominant. Otherwise cloners like WE, KJW and others will never exist.

A lot of people will buy cheaper alternative if available. We dont need to flame is it good or bad [for them], but its just a fact. You always loose some profit if there is someone else on the market with comparable but cheaper product.


And my opinion about TM pistols: stock one - maybe they are better. They are definitely better after upgrades, but this makes their price 3x of stock WE. It makes sense only for competitive shooting or if you have a lot of free money. None of this is applicable to me and most others.


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Many Veterans who've played airsoft for a very long time have experienced different brands and whatnot. TM has never failed me nor do i see it doing so in the foreseeable future. obviously there are cheaper alternatives that one can buy, however veterans who spend TLC on their guns, usually tend to buy TM GBB Pistols due to reliability and upgradability. Its like comparing a Stock WE to a Stock TM Hi-capa for example. Yes the TM is made of ABS Plastic but it still out performs a Stock WE any day. Newer players may not want to dump hundreds or even Thousands of dollars into a TM pistol for example. does not mean that TM is loosing money because many people buy them as a base guns to build super awesome sexy guns like the ones ILLusion builds


TM still has their customer base and It was no surprise that the TM M870 sold out so fast. I have friends in HK that are trying to "monopolize" them as well.

@ILLusion, I'm sure it can be found in some small stores in Mong Kok, however all the large retailers like Redwolf,Ehob, UN and WGC have all sold out from what I know.

Saw some m870s from when my friend showed me a week ago when he faced timed me, some at Hero Arms and some small stores in MK.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 16:33   #138
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I don't see the problem honestly. You can buy a TM pistol for 280 bucks now. Sure, its plastic. But the thing lasts, and shoots great.

Buy a WE pistol. How long until it breaks? How well does it perform? Is the hundred bucks you're saving really worth it? The repairs that follow will eventually lead, and exceed the cost of what you're paying for a TM gun.

I've used WE pistols, I've used KJW and multiple other 'cheap' brands because I couldn't be bothered to pay that extra amount, and I end up wasting money down the line just to repair the damn things. I wouldn't say they're comparable unless you get one of those rare lemon-immune guns that somehow last forever. I wouldn't even classify them as comparable.

And whenever we get pistols on the workbench here... it always turns up to be a 'cheap alternative'.

I stick to TM and KWA/KSC for my sidearms now, You pay extra, but you pay for peace of mind and durability. I haven't regretted it.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 19:13   #139
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...even the "legendary" tm 5.1 had a problem upon first release iirc (propane blowing out the bbu or something i don't remember)
That was because of the piston head o-ring design that they used. It had a bad tendency to blow out of its track when using propane, which caused a host of problems. This was quickly fixed with the piston head "cup" design that is still in use today. I still have a few of those old piston heads lying around. It's a nice piece of history on a Tokyo Marui screw up.

Tanio Koba was pretty quick to respond to that first issue, by releasing an aftermarket piston cup, which didn't really hold up well to propane use either. I have a number of torn TK Piston Cups here, but they did work better than the original piston heads, and was a decent band-aid solution till the H-43-26~27 piston cup design came out.



In regards to the "recall", thanks for the link. Reading through it, there is no mention of a recall at all, and it looks more like a troubleshooting QA that claims most of the problems encountered are due to user error. In almost all instances of problems, their answer pretty much looks to be a generic "RTFM".

As for the discussion about cheaper clones... they can go right ahead and clone the Marui M870 in its current state, but if there is in fact an engineering flaw in the design, then these clone companies will do exactly that: Clone the problems. Keep in mind, that R&D budgets for clone companies are literally $0. If there's a problem, they won't immediately look in to fixing it.

Also, I doubt they'll be able to clone and release a product within a 4 month time span. 8 year old Chinese child labour is fast, but it's not THAT fast.... or maybe it is. Get an entire village of children working in a sweatshop... I'm sure their nimble little fingers can move quickly. They move quicker when you threaten denial of a bowl of rice, or just plain whip them harder. LOL

Last edited by ILLusion; September 20th, 2013 at 19:23..
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Old September 20th, 2013, 19:30   #140
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The reality is that the cheaper alternatives don't tend to innovate.

If they did there would have been a host of gas shottys out there ahead of this one.

While TM might not crack out new stuff at a rate that keeps everyone happy they still crack out new and different stuff.

Sitting back and casting scorn at what they do and saying everyone would be better served by buying the cheaper copies of their stuff doesn't seem to be fully thought out.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 21:30   #141
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I love Japanese toys and electronics engineering, but I couldn't afford it much. I love the clone version just because it's cheaper and if I broke it I wouldn't feel regret, most of the time I have to even spend more money to fix it and make it back alive! I would rather stick with Japanese version if I could the choice.
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 22:24   #142
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The callback seems true, my hongkong supplier can't get them until TM resolves the faulty O-ring.
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 22:39   #143
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I had heard a hop up issue was causing jams.
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 22:59   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILLusion View Post
Also, I doubt they'll be able to clone and release a product within a 4 month time span. 8 year old Chinese child labour is fast, but it's not THAT fast.... or maybe it is. Get an entire village of children working in a sweatshop... I'm sure their nimble little fingers can move quickly. They move quicker when you threaten denial of a bowl of rice, or just plain whip them harder. LOL
You will be surprised on how fast they can cloned a hot item....... Most of the japanese airsoft items the molds are made in China, in some cases within days or weeks of a release you will see the clones out in specialty shops in HK. I can almost guarantee that if you go to known clone shop like COP17 you will see a knock off TM shotty.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 10:59   #145
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TM M870 clone will be ready soon in a couple weeks
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Old September 26th, 2013, 16:05   #146
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Bad news everyone, The 870 gas tank is showing expansion and flex (very similar to the tanaka m700 gas mags) when used with propane....Very dangerous.

further results pending - alex


Pic jacked from arnies
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Last edited by ILLusion; September 26th, 2013 at 17:43..
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Old September 26th, 2013, 16:56   #147
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Bad news everyone, The 870 gas tank is showing expansion and flex (very similar to the tanaka m700 gas mags) when used with propane....Very dangerous.

further results pending - alex


Pic jacked from arnies
Flex is very bad for metal pressure container.
Suddenly I dont trust RD department of TM anymore. They did not implement 5x safety then developing a compressed gas reservoir? Even kids can do better!
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Old September 26th, 2013, 17:45   #148
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Flex is very bad for metal pressure container.
Suddenly I dont trust RD department of TM anymore. They did not implement 5x safety then developing a compressed gas reservoir? Even kids can do better!
Is there some sort of ISO certification requirement to meet a 5x buffer? Is Tokyo Marui even ISO certified? As far as I know, they only design based on THEIR needs for ASGK requirements. ASGK does not require them to build to higher pressures, and they would actually PREFER that airsoft manufacturers did NOT design guns capable of handling higher power.

Looks like the exact same issue as the Tanaka M700 series, as Alex mentioned. I've already replaced all my M700 magazine inserts with (discontinued) billet aluminum replacements.

I've caught wind that CNC machined billet aluminum parts are being made for the Marui M870 gas tanks. No word on ETA or who will be branding it.

Last edited by ILLusion; September 26th, 2013 at 17:48..
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Old September 28th, 2013, 11:03   #149
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Lots of TM870's out there actually just that these stores have pretty much done them up and are selling them as "custom" guns.

Im very interested as to know how Hero Arms did the M870 In the picture below. it does not use the original Gas tank at all as you can see.
They used another alternative to the bulky m700 type gas tank.

the other pic shows alot of G&P accessories on them.



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Old October 16th, 2013, 15:30   #150
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Anyone has more data / input on the issue with propane??
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