Sea Cans and player safety..>Looking for opinions<

ex · May 6th, 2012, 20:34

NO worries guys... safety is our main concern...we will of course test them out...I actually blew one yesterday..yes they're loud but not deafening

T_A_N_K · May 6th, 2012, 20:54

If your going to be kicking in doors and going into a CQB environment you should be bringing and wearing the appropriate kit.

You should be covered head to toe and have the appropriate gear. Full Face Protection, no exposed skin, gloves, knee pads the works.

There's a reason why people kicking down door's don't wear boonies, and people humping it in the jungle don't wear plate carriers and helmets.

Have the appropriate kit for the appropriate environment.

You can put all the rules you want, but it is the end user to ensure they have the proper safety equipment.

A lot of people at RHINO were wearing soft covers and no face shields while we were playing outside the complex. As soon as we were planning to go inside, everyone went back to put on their helmets and face shields on.

FOX_111 · May 7th, 2012, 14:48

We have extensive Real CQB (as in, not paintball field CQB) experiance here in Québec and that teached us that 350fps work well inside. Single shots only for problematic erea like staircases.

I understand the challenge of having people shooting in and out of those containers. Like Drake said, people need to be educated, not regulated to death.

I beleive a good compromise would be to enforce a strick Semi Only rule in the containers. Those shooting IN from the outside would not be limited.

Face shots sux. Face mask exist for those not willing to face the risk.

IMO, you should inforce a No-Idiots rule more than trying to lower the bar for the rest of the players.

Viperfish · May 7th, 2012, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyissue

Dude, military does not go into sea cans with out a grenade first, because they are there to Kill. Thats what Army does.

Ummm, no we dont...

To OP: limiting to semi or short busts would be your best bet. If someone is scared about getting hit with full auto at that distance then they wont go in them, simple as that.

Drake · May 7th, 2012, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX_111

Face shots sux. Face mask exist for those not willing to face the risk.

There's one observation I'd make about face masks from my own experience last weekend at the Mall: I'd use one of those mesh masks before at the Mall (when the FPS limit was 400 fps) and using my AK105 (with a scout mounted T-1 Micro dot sight) I was able to aim properly: but last weekend, using my CQB M4 (with M2 red dot) I found it impossible to get a good enough cheek weld to aim properly and ended up holding the gun funny and adjusting my aim by following the BBs. I ended up ditching the face mask after the second round.

IMO the inability to properly use sights/optics creates a much more dangerous condition than the risk of face shots. Overall I'd say it may even be preferable to just wear a mouth guard and no mask as the risk of a face shot will make people think twice about what they're doing (a bit of a hockey argument, i.e. more protective gear is leading to more violent hits).

Brian McIlmoyle · May 7th, 2012, 15:20

Mitigating Risk

The issue with having a combined field and close quarters environment is the use of "field guns" at close rage.

I run a 350 fps with .20 bb hard limit at TTAC3 .. and we have bad bleeders each and every week.. if you are not covered up, you will be bleeding.

We run 0 distance engagements.. include muzzle contact in some situations.

People generally come ready to face this risk. gloves, full face, helmets.. Those that don't prepare the first time.. certainly do the second.

However limiting to 350 with .20 when the field limit at most field games is 400 or more is not practical.

Restricting to Semi only .. mitigates some of the risk, but people will forget and accidents will happen.

I believe that the best solution for managing this risk is to require Pistol only for entry into the cans.. and also require Pistol only to shoot from the Cans

no entry to the structure unless you have a pistol.

Dirtbag · May 7th, 2012, 16:42

We have been playing on a field with multiple buildings for over 8 years now, we do not restrict FPS, 400 is the field limit, or Rate of fire. But we do have 3 simple rules.

I will note we have an average of 50 to 80 players per game with a wide age group. We have about 1 issue a year, usually a new guy who got excited.

The big thing is have a clear set of rules, do not change them and go over them as part of the safety briefing. Have a clear penalty for breaking the rule
and the #1 biggest thing enforce the penalty.

Our Rules

Body shots only inside player and player entering

3 to 10 round burst 1 to 2 seconds.

No SAW or 11.2 lipos allowed to clear buildings or if inside allowed to engage persons entering. Lipos are a rate of fire issue, we a few that will empty a low cap in 3 to 4 secs. So it is an all are cover rule case.

On the ThunderB not allowed period.

Tornado grenades simply have to go off inside, our rule is if it goes off you are hit mostly due the ricochet issue.

Kozzie · May 7th, 2012, 17:03

Semi only when in the cans, this includes shooting from inside towards the outside. If you can only use pistols inside the cans most players won't want to use them. If you don't want to be shot at CQB ranges, stay away from the cans. If you don't want bleeders on your face, wear protection. Educate the players and stress trigger control while shooting in the cans.

Thunder-b grenades inside a tin can presents it's own safety concerns with player's hearing both long term and short. IMO those things are far too loud for use "indoors".

Cliffradical · May 7th, 2012, 18:02

350 with .2s is fine for CQB.
Provided that your arms, hands, face, and neck are covered, you'll be fine.
'Covered' doesn't mean padded either. I've had bleeders and ruptured skin on my arms while playing in a t-shirt, but once you put a layer of clothing between the bbs and your skin, the damage potential is almost entirely mitigated.
You will still get welts from very close range shots, but nothing worse than a small bruise.

As for full-auto, I'm not being inflammatory here, but HTFU and deal with it. As long as a gun is not shooting over 350 and your players are wearing adequate safety gear (mesh mask and full skin coverage), no real harm will come to the player after taking a 3-5 round burst. Semi-auto is of course preferable, but imo full-auto up close should be in the realm of 'frowned upon but understood and tolerated' rather than 'eject the player'.
Getting triple-tapped in the kidney is a great incentive for a player to improve their defensive/ reactionary CQB game.

To echo other posters, what this really comes down to is adequate training, skill, and player attention to others' safety and relative comfort.
Proper safety gear eliminates the first level of immediate danger, shot placement (torso/ legs only when possible) eliminates the second level of uncontrolled danger, and a good attitude covers level three, which is the 'owie! my finger!' factor.

People whose egos get bruised more than their bodies should stay out of CQB.
People who can't handle the stress, pressure, and fear of having men run at them full-tilt around corners while spiking shadows with controlled bursts should stay out of CQB.
People who can't or won't settle for wearing full-sealing goggles, masks, and a scarf or balaclava should either stay out of CQB or accept the consequences of putting their safety and well-being at risk.

Leave CQB to the adrenaline junkies, the maniacs, and the subgun-fetishists and go run overwatch.

I agree with running pistols, that's a nice compromise for all involved. But a nicely tuned AEG with a good hopup running 350 can be a viable outdoor platform as well, especially if supported by teamwork from faster guns.
Maybe you can get your teams to pick a few players who are comfortable with running slower guns to be designated CQB 'specialists'?
That way the guys running faster guns have the objective of supporting their entry team, and the entry team(s) get to be stars of their own little show.

As for Thunder Bs, they are pretty awesome.
I would, however strongly recommend testing them with ear pro on before actually using them in a game.
I found that they create an acceptable amount of noise in an open outdoor setting, but I wouldn't run them in an enclosed space without hearing protection. In a shipping container, windows cut or not, they would be fucking loud.

Edit:
Dirtbag's rules are great, ~400fps is fine up close depending on the mindset of those involved, auto is fun, that is all.

m102404 · May 7th, 2012, 18:17

Pistols...or semi only inside cans. Pistols are ideal though.

While I prefer semi only always stuff...Shooting at or from cans can be full auto...engaging inside is different.

If the guy on the trigger can't sort that out give him a time out and he can try again at the next game. If he doesn't "trust" himself to be able to switch in a crisis, then he's got the ability to stay on semi.

And a very strong caution/encouragement to be as physically prepared as you feel the need to be.

Everything else isn't practical.

Safety's first...but having a brain is a prerequisite

AngelusNex · May 7th, 2012, 18:18

Only real options are

A: semi only, problem being "my gun accidentally switched to auto" or "I'm sorry, i didnt have time to switch it to semi"

B: burst fire, honestly this rule is shit cause the birsts slowly get longer and longer throughout the day, unless everybody is playing with a 3 rnd burt limited gun it's not really an option

C: Pistols only, bu then you have reflex drawing the rifle or the guys without pistols not wanting to miss out on the cqb action.

D: bunkering. Attacking players can disable a bunker without entering it by using a specifit tool (thunder b grenades and the like) or in with the method used in paintball which is if one player can get up to the outside wall of the bunker (or in this case Sea Can) and bang on it 3 times everybody inside is dead.

If safty is your number one concern option D is really the only way to go. A or C are the second safest IMO and B is just stupid, there is no real way to police it without standing behind everyplayer with a timer measuring every burst.

Rickshaw · May 7th, 2012, 20:23

Put up signs around the entrances that clearly state that the area is semi fire only, and if someone breaks the rules remove them from the game. I don't care how 'heat of the moment' CQB is, you always have time to change your fire selector switch. If I have enough time to switch my rifle from safe to repetition in the time it takes me to line up a shot, you sure as hell can switch your selector from auto to repetition in the time it takes to get to the door.

Danke · May 7th, 2012, 20:59

There is an old saying; or maybe I'm just old but I"ll say it again. "Walk before you run".

Mixing an outdoor/indoor field rule will be no different than telling a sniper he needs to carry a sidearm to engage within his MED. That's a very common rule and I don't here any complaints about it being unfair.

So you can put everyone out there with guns that are the lowest common denominator and soft enough to engage at 0'. Or you can stipulate the folks going into the containers carry and use a pistol only. I would play under either scenario but I would prefer to carry something with some punch and then something else to use in close.

For the particular local field; they know who plays there and can gauge if there are enough players with Option A or B to make it work.

Dirtbag · May 15th, 2012, 17:07

AngelusNex,

Your responses are pretty poor on all your points but I will deal with mine.

I would suggest you play with a better group of people. While I agree there can be issues with what a short burst is, and various fields have differing safety requirements. We have tried many options and decided that short controlled burst work. Of course we expect that all the time as we play in close brush.

Your response to burst fire is pretty poor, if a 14 year old gets it and can manage it and even new guys 1st gamers understand. Either I have a higher quality of players (doubtful) or simply make sure everyone understands in manner you have not seen.

And just to be clear safety is important to us, our worst injury in 9 years was a blown knee from slipping on wet ground. We control FPS with a chrono, types of eye protection and specific face protection requirements for those under 19. The difference is we understand this sport has risk, and CQB has more.

It is a sport that takes a certain level of maturity and discipline to play, being able to control your fire is part of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelusNex

Only real options are

B: burst fire, honestly this rule is shit cause the birsts slowly get longer and longer throughout the day, unless everybody is playing with a 3 rnd burt limited gun it's not really an option

If safty is your number one concern option D is really the only way to go. A or C are the second safest IMO and B is just stupid, there is no real way to police it without standing behind everyplayer with a timer measuring every burst.

AngelusNex · May 15th, 2012, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirtbag

AngelusNex,

Your responses are pretty poor on all your points but I will deal with mine.

Excuse me? Poor on all my points? Please explain how so or retract your comments.

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May 6th, 2012, 20:34	#16
ex Wanna buy some Nod's? #StolenValour Trader rating Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa	NO worries guys... safety is our main concern...we will of course test them out...I actually blew one yesterday..yes they're loud but not deafening __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

May 6th, 2012, 20:54	#17
T_A_N_K Trader rating Join Date: Sep 2006	If your going to be kicking in doors and going into a CQB environment you should be bringing and wearing the appropriate kit. You should be covered head to toe and have the appropriate gear. Full Face Protection, no exposed skin, gloves, knee pads the works. There's a reason why people kicking down door's don't wear boonies, and people humping it in the jungle don't wear plate carriers and helmets. Have the appropriate kit for the appropriate environment. You can put all the rules you want, but it is the end user to ensure they have the proper safety equipment. A lot of people at RHINO were wearing soft covers and no face shields while we were playing outside the complex. As soon as we were planning to go inside, everyone went back to put on their helmets and face shields on. Last edited by T_A_N_K; May 6th, 2012 at 20:59..

May 7th, 2012, 14:48	#18
FOX_111 Le Roi des poissons d'avril Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Terrebonne, Québec	We have extensive Real CQB (as in, not paintball field CQB) experiance here in Québec and that teached us that 350fps work well inside. Single shots only for problematic erea like staircases. I understand the challenge of having people shooting in and out of those containers. Like Drake said, people need to be educated, not regulated to death. I beleive a good compromise would be to enforce a strick Semi Only rule in the containers. Those shooting IN from the outside would not be limited. Face shots sux. Face mask exist for those not willing to face the risk. IMO, you should inforce a No-Idiots rule more than trying to lower the bar for the rest of the players. __________________ Vérificateur d'âge: Terrebonne

May 7th, 2012, 15:20	#21
Brian McIlmoyle 8=======D Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Toronto	Mitigating Risk The issue with having a combined field and close quarters environment is the use of "field guns" at close rage. I run a 350 fps with .20 bb hard limit at TTAC3 .. and we have bad bleeders each and every week.. if you are not covered up, you will be bleeding. We run 0 distance engagements.. include muzzle contact in some situations. People generally come ready to face this risk. gloves, full face, helmets.. Those that don't prepare the first time.. certainly do the second. However limiting to 350 with .20 when the field limit at most field games is 400 or more is not practical. Restricting to Semi only .. mitigates some of the risk, but people will forget and accidents will happen. I believe that the best solution for managing this risk is to require Pistol only for entry into the cans.. and also require Pistol only to shoot from the Cans no entry to the structure unless you have a pistol. __________________ Brian McIlmoyle TTAC3 Director CAPS Range Officer Toronto Downtown Age Verifier OPERATION WOODSMAN If the tongue could cut as the sword does, the dead would be infinite

May 7th, 2012, 16:42	#22
Dirtbag Trader rating Join Date: Feb 2004	Or We have been playing on a field with multiple buildings for over 8 years now, we do not restrict FPS, 400 is the field limit, or Rate of fire. But we do have 3 simple rules. I will note we have an average of 50 to 80 players per game with a wide age group. We have about 1 issue a year, usually a new guy who got excited. The big thing is have a clear set of rules, do not change them and go over them as part of the safety briefing. Have a clear penalty for breaking the rule and the #1 biggest thing enforce the penalty. Our Rules Body shots only inside player and player entering 3 to 10 round burst 1 to 2 seconds. No SAW or 11.2 lipos allowed to clear buildings or if inside allowed to engage persons entering. Lipos are a rate of fire issue, we a few that will empty a low cap in 3 to 4 secs. So it is an all are cover rule case. On the ThunderB not allowed period. Tornado grenades simply have to go off inside, our rule is if it goes off you are hit mostly due the ricochet issue.

May 7th, 2012, 17:03	#23
Kozzie a.k.a. Greedy Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Toronto	Semi only when in the cans, this includes shooting from inside towards the outside. If you can only use pistols inside the cans most players won't want to use them. If you don't want to be shot at CQB ranges, stay away from the cans. If you don't want bleeders on your face, wear protection. Educate the players and stress trigger control while shooting in the cans. Thunder-b grenades inside a tin can presents it's own safety concerns with player's hearing both long term and short. IMO those things are far too loud for use "indoors". Last edited by Kozzie; May 8th, 2012 at 01:43..

May 7th, 2012, 18:02	#24
Cliffradical butthurt for not having a user title Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Winnipeg	350 with .2s is fine for CQB. Provided that your arms, hands, face, and neck are covered, you'll be fine. 'Covered' doesn't mean padded either. I've had bleeders and ruptured skin on my arms while playing in a t-shirt, but once you put a layer of clothing between the bbs and your skin, the damage potential is almost entirely mitigated. You will still get welts from very close range shots, but nothing worse than a small bruise. As for full-auto, I'm not being inflammatory here, but HTFU and deal with it. As long as a gun is not shooting over 350 and your players are wearing adequate safety gear (mesh mask and full skin coverage), no real harm will come to the player after taking a 3-5 round burst. Semi-auto is of course preferable, but imo full-auto up close should be in the realm of 'frowned upon but understood and tolerated' rather than 'eject the player'. Getting triple-tapped in the kidney is a great incentive for a player to improve their defensive/ reactionary CQB game. To echo other posters, what this really comes down to is adequate training, skill, and player attention to others' safety and relative comfort. Proper safety gear eliminates the first level of immediate danger, shot placement (torso/ legs only when possible) eliminates the second level of uncontrolled danger, and a good attitude covers level three, which is the 'owie! my finger!' factor. People whose egos get bruised more than their bodies should stay out of CQB. People who can't handle the stress, pressure, and fear of having men run at them full-tilt around corners while spiking shadows with controlled bursts should stay out of CQB. People who can't or won't settle for wearing full-sealing goggles, masks, and a scarf or balaclava should either stay out of CQB or accept the consequences of putting their safety and well-being at risk. Leave CQB to the adrenaline junkies, the maniacs, and the subgun-fetishists and go run overwatch. I agree with running pistols, that's a nice compromise for all involved. But a nicely tuned AEG with a good hopup running 350 can be a viable outdoor platform as well, especially if supported by teamwork from faster guns. Maybe you can get your teams to pick a few players who are comfortable with running slower guns to be designated CQB 'specialists'? That way the guys running faster guns have the objective of supporting their entry team, and the entry team(s) get to be stars of their own little show. As for Thunder Bs, they are pretty awesome. I would, however strongly recommend testing them with ear pro on before actually using them in a game. I found that they create an acceptable amount of noise in an open outdoor setting, but I wouldn't run them in an enclosed space without hearing protection. In a shipping container, windows cut or not, they would be fucking loud. Edit: Dirtbag's rules are great, ~400fps is fine up close depending on the mindset of those involved, auto is fun, that is all. Last edited by Cliffradical; May 7th, 2012 at 18:09..

May 7th, 2012, 18:17	#25
m102404 Tys Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto	Pistols...or semi only inside cans. Pistols are ideal though. While I prefer semi only always stuff...Shooting at or from cans can be full auto...engaging inside is different. If the guy on the trigger can't sort that out give him a time out and he can try again at the next game. If he doesn't "trust" himself to be able to switch in a crisis, then he's got the ability to stay on semi. And a very strong caution/encouragement to be as physically prepared as you feel the need to be. Everything else isn't practical. Safety's first...but having a brain is a prerequisite

May 7th, 2012, 18:18	#26
AngelusNex formerly Sepulcrum Trader rating Join Date: May 2007 Location: Kingston,ON, aka Funkasia	Only real options are A: semi only, problem being "my gun accidentally switched to auto" or "I'm sorry, i didnt have time to switch it to semi" B: burst fire, honestly this rule is shit cause the birsts slowly get longer and longer throughout the day, unless everybody is playing with a 3 rnd burt limited gun it's not really an option C: Pistols only, bu then you have reflex drawing the rifle or the guys without pistols not wanting to miss out on the cqb action. D: bunkering. Attacking players can disable a bunker without entering it by using a specifit tool (thunder b grenades and the like) or in with the method used in paintball which is if one player can get up to the outside wall of the bunker (or in this case Sea Can) and bang on it 3 times everybody inside is dead. If safty is your number one concern option D is really the only way to go. A or C are the second safest IMO and B is just stupid, there is no real way to police it without standing behind everyplayer with a timer measuring every burst.

May 7th, 2012, 20:23	#27
Rickshaw Trader rating Join Date: May 2011 Location: Winnipeg, MB	Put up signs around the entrances that clearly state that the area is semi fire only, and if someone breaks the rules remove them from the game. I don't care how 'heat of the moment' CQB is, you always have time to change your fire selector switch. If I have enough time to switch my rifle from safe to repetition in the time it takes me to line up a shot, you sure as hell can switch your selector from auto to repetition in the time it takes to get to the door. __________________ Click above for the MB Bootnecks Facebook page! "Pro Patria"

May 7th, 2012, 20:59	#28
Danke Prancercise Guru Trader rating Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Danger Zone	There is an old saying; or maybe I'm just old but I"ll say it again. "Walk before you run". Mixing an outdoor/indoor field rule will be no different than telling a sniper he needs to carry a sidearm to engage within his MED. That's a very common rule and I don't here any complaints about it being unfair. So you can put everyone out there with guns that are the lowest common denominator and soft enough to engage at 0'. Or you can stipulate the folks going into the containers carry and use a pistol only. I would play under either scenario but I would prefer to carry something with some punch and then something else to use in close. For the particular local field; they know who plays there and can gauge if there are enough players with Option A or B to make it work. __________________ Airsoft, where nothing is hurt but feelings.

Sea Cans and player safety..>Looking for opinions<

Tactics, Techniques and Procedures