Celcius CTW: Systema PTW clone

[Ronan]

If this is real and comparable to a PTW, SystemA will be all over it with its lawyers.

Considering a TM clone cost $100 and the real deal $400.... the price seems kinda right... but since the system is high tech and needs to be perfect... hmmm :S

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Ronan

If this is real and comparable to a PTW, SystemA will be all over it with its lawyers.

Only if they try and sell it in Japan. International copyright enforcement is sketchy at best, assuming Systema has any patent or copyright to protect at all.

[Lakonian]

So, apparently Kumi stole alot of what's in the PTW? Wow. Didn't know that.

[GrieverX]

If this does come into fruition, I'm sure SystemA would try to take some sort of action against the company. But, seeing as how patents are "enforced" over there, I don't really see much coming out of it.

I don't blame SystemA though if they tried. The worst thing that can happen is someone out there buys one, finds its a lemon (which is very real possibility) or at the very least isn't up to par, then from that makes a rash generalization that all PTW's suck. Pretty unfair comparison, but if it can happen with regular AEGs, its bound to happen with PTWs.

As with all china clones, I'd look at this more in the same light as a project gun. If you already own a real PTW and want to experiment then this would be cheaper than another systema. However, purchasing this clone with full expectations that it is a complete replacement to a real PTW would be a bit too bold and naive.

[mcguyver]

Yes, this is true. Like buying a Jing Gong Rama-Lama-Ding-Dong and expecting it to be a solid, reliable field worthy gun out of the box. Odds are against you, but it does happen.

Buy it for what it is, and expect to spend money on it, or expect a dud. Hey, sometimes it happens with the Systema, the clone is sure to amplify this.

[MadMax]

I'm not sure that there's very much patentable work in the PTW. Using optics to look through gears might not be a very unobvious idea as there are a lot of examples of optical gates used to look through encoder wheels (servos etc). The upper cylinder assembly might be seen as a close cousin to a split box which has been around for some time.

I really feel sorry for SystemA. They spent a significant amount of trouble in part layout and part design, but in the end there isn't all that much novelty to fill out a patent. Their manufacturing techniques are largely mainstream so duplicating their work isn't particularly difficult if you have manufacturing capacity.

China is rife with CNC machining capacity. You might think that cheap labor has little impact on manufacturing price when heavy CNC is involved, but in non fully automated low volume (sub 10k qty) that isn't the case. Two mills running full time require at least one operators setting up and taking down parts full time even if the mill has a tool changer. Throw in multiple part setups and you've got even more time. Then there's deburring, inspection, and assembly. Cost of materials is nearly negligible in a product like a PTW. Aluminum is a cheap material and SystemA does not depend on any special alloys or cold forgings which require techniqes that are more refined. If you think CNC is special, you don't know that much about production manufacturing. CNC machining is a very early investment for most machining facilities globally. The cost of the equipment is falling very fast with the availability of low cost computers and control systems.

Hopefully SystemA has some patent on something like the sprung ball detent design in their cylinder. It not only holds the upper down, but it provides accurate registration with the tail end of the cyl to the lower. Hopefully they have some pending patents which would give them some protection for their hard work.

[mcguyver]

It was only a matter of time until someone at least attempted a clone. Everything else seems to have one these days. But the problem with clones is getting them to be as good or better than the original. Systema has had years to work on the fine details of manufacturing and assembly. The cloner has to do that immediately, or he's dead in the water.

Bad clone = no sales of clones = no profit = no clone.

The Europeans have a better chance, but they need to get the physical gun out there. Talk is cheap.

[MadMax]

The sad thing is that the real damage is the perceived drop in value of the original build. The presence of a very similar low cost alternative depresses the perceived value of the original build. I'm not saying that the SystemA build will suddenly be replaced by the copy builder.

Subtleties like involute tooth design and tolerance analysis take an experienced designer's hand, but the feature list printed on the box is easy to provide. Unfortunately all bets are off on this one. All it takes is an experienced engineer to sheppard the process with low cost manufacturing to hit all the necessary points to make a good AEG. The PTW isn't exactly rocket science. Surface mount electronics are mainstream and the firmware behind the PTW's electronics isn't that difficult to copy in function. China makes a lot of good gearboxes for other industries. If an experienced gearbox designer works on this clone instead of a hackneyed hobbyist all of the PTW design intent can be easily reverse engineered. On the other hand if some douche with some dough dropped a hunk of dough at a manufacturing shop and asked them to duplicate a PTW, then it would likely suck and sound like a coffee grinder in a blender on "does it blend" while blasting 0.1g hemispherical pellets chopped from spherical 0.2g pellets.

[stokes]

http://celciustechnology.com/index.htm

Just found this! Very interesting. If you go to the company profile page they have nice pics of their facilities!

[Crunchmeister]

Originally Posted by kullwarrior

already discussed deeply in ptw forum, price seems wrong from most feedback (too cheap to be true)

Well, I remember last fall reading some pretty negative comments about the Real Sword guns, with people saying they'd be nothing but cheap Chinese guns about utter crap because of their low price point, and would have poor QA, garbage internals, etc.

Turns out they were quite wrong, with Real Sword producing AEGs that leave 100% of their competition so far behind they don't even appear in their rearviews. With their real steel grade externals (whether or not it's Norinco-produced externals is debatable), innovative internal design, quality parts, etc, they've produced an stock AEG that's far superior to even a highly upgraded 'brand name' gun that would cost 2-3x as much.

Now, I'm not saying that these CTWs will be that way too. If they just try to knock out cheap replicas of PTWs, they will more than likely fail. However, Chinese manufacturing is catching up. Look at the clone AEGs like JG as an example. A few years ago, they were garbage. Now though, JG have, at least in my experience, almost caught up with Tokyo Marui.

So I guess time will tell if these guns end up being worth it or not. I wouldn't touch one in the short term, but if in a few years, they prove themselves worthy, I'll say screw Systema and grab one of these.

[wildcard]

Time will tell just look at all the companies that have copied systema before, progear, classic army, G&P etc. If the demand is out there, there will always be a company willing to make a clone cheaper. The only question is will the clone be better or worse??

[Bob the Angry Potato]

Gun is now on preorder in Indonesia... we'll see how the first few folks like theirs.

[silent_recon]

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

Well, I remember last fall reading some pretty negative comments about the Real Sword guns, with people saying they'd be nothing but cheap Chinese guns about utter crap because of their low price point, and would have poor QA, garbage internals, etc.

Turns out they were quite wrong, with Real Sword producing AEGs that leave 100% of their competition so far behind they don't even appear in their rearviews. With their real steel grade externals (whether or not it's Norinco-produced externals is debatable), innovative internal design, quality parts, etc, they've produced an stock AEG that's far superior to even a highly upgraded 'brand name' gun that would cost 2-3x as much.

Now, I'm not saying that these CTWs will be that way too. If they just try to knock out cheap replicas of PTWs, they will more than likely fail. However, Chinese manufacturing is catching up. Look at the clone AEGs like JG as an example. A few years ago, they were garbage. Now though, JG have, at least in my experience, almost caught up with Tokyo Marui.

So I guess time will tell if these guns end up being worth it or not. I wouldn't touch one in the short term, but if in a few years, they prove themselves worthy, I'll say screw Systema and grab one of these.

realsword AEG's are made in the same factory as the rifles that are issued to the chinese military, or so i believe. my friends dad (lerch's dad) was interested in purchasing a real sword AEG, so he researched it for weeks and weeks, and even called the factory. during his phone call to the english speaking representitive, he was told that every PLA soldier is issued a real rifle, and an AEG from their plant, the AEG being a Real Sword type 56. they do this so that during operations, CO's can bring their troops into friendly lines, and they can train with the AEG's, and hone their soldiering skills.
correct me if i'm wrong, but this is what i was told

[-=]MH[=-RaiDen]

Originally Posted by silent_recon

realsword AEG's are made in the same factory as the rifles that are issued to the chinese military, or so i believe. my friends dad (lerch's dad) was interested in purchasing a real sword AEG, so he researched it for weeks and weeks, and even called the factory. during his phone call to the english speaking representitive, he was told that every PLA soldier is issued a real rifle, and an AEG from their plant, the AEG being a Real Sword type 56. they do this so that during operations, CO's can bring their troops into friendly lines, and they can train with the AEG's, and hone their soldiering skills.
correct me if i'm wrong, but this is what i was told

A real steel type 56? I thought they phase them out in 1986.

[Kokanee]

Originally Posted by -=]MH[=-RaiDen

A real steel type 56? I thought they phase them out in 1986.

Due to the vast size of the PLA, it has proven economically challenging to replace every single Type-56 in service. Front line and special forces units are issued the newer QBZ-95 for example, while second line and training units still use the Type-56.

It's like Russian. The small arm of choice for the army was supposed to be the AN-94, but budgetary issues have led to a relatively small adoption rate amoung even front-line units - most are still using some variant of the AK74 or AKM.