Looking for a good machinist!

deadlydayne · March 26th, 2011, 00:41

what did i say jebus?
"i absolutely hate it. It may work for some applications but not for what this." Deadlydayne

If you are here to argue then leave now. im not here to deal with you guys arguing me on this. if you think you can do better go make your own. For now (like if said 10 times now) im starting with aluminum.

MadMax · March 26th, 2011, 02:43

deadlydane: I think you're getting emotionally attached to a particular implementation for this part. In every particular process using materials, there are best practices to follow and not all fabricators will follow them.

For instance, WE cast the original part in materiel which is not particularly strong probably not paying much attention to thermal processing (annealing or age hardening etc), material quality (contaminants such as graphite or slag), much less part design (sharp corners concentrating stress). A poorly cast airsoft gun part made in cheese metal does not compare to a responsibly cast part made in a good steel without heavy graphite inclusions.

You may not be aware that Armalite receivers start out as rough castings of aluminum. An Armalite receiver starts out as a rough casting which is broached (to receive the magazine) and finished machined to receive the trigger group. Despite being cast, Armalite receivers generally meet the needs for a rugged combat weapon and significantly exceed the needs of chairsofting. The castings coming out of Colt's suppliers are not comparable to the scatstings coming out of WE's shop. There are only two or three suppliers of rough castings supplying the significant appetite for Armalite variants in the US.

The design of the part in question is not well suited to being machined. There are some pretty thin sections which would require 3d machining from billet stock with the center pocket done last. If you have access to 5 axis milling, you could drill all the cross holes before opening up the center pocket. After the shape is finished, you could probably bandsaw off the end, but you'd have to put a CNC shaped plug inside the center and clamp the outside with a shape milled into soft jaws to fly cut finish the rough cut end.

I would figure that it'd take about 15min of machining time per part, 8hrs to make the custom tooling, and 5hrs of CAD/CAM time if you give your machine shop the original part. Most shops wouldn't be very happy with the CAD models provided by most amateurs. Too many poorly knitted surfaces so it's difficult to economize there. Besides, most airsofters don't have a granite plate and a CMM or even a pair of calipers. It's difficult to make an accurate CAD model without some decent gauging tools.

So, figure $120/hr for the machine time [$30] (5 axis is quite a machine!), $70/hr for the tooling and CAD time [$910] for a total of $940. Almost all of your costs are in the CAD/tooling setup costs. Even if you run a billion parts and amortize your tooling, a cost of $30 is high for the machine time and it will be difficult to get lower without financing your own Deckel Maho or even a junky Haas mill.

Or, you can painstakingly mill the thing yourself on a manual mill with multiple setups and some custom jigs made on said mill. Make a single mistake in about a thousand moves done in say 10 Z layers and you have a piece of junk. You might as well take the plunge and make it in steel which doesn't have the same fatigue problems as aluminum.

Don't forget that this is a public forum. You don't own this thread and there are many contributors. Just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean you have to violently object to it. Some players might decide to go with different techniques than you and quashing a discussion that isn't going your way isn't a good way to get a good practical discussion on a public forum.

deadlydayne · March 26th, 2011, 02:53

or a smart machinist would make what people call soft jaws, you know aluminum jaws that bolt onto vices, cut the vice jaws to hold the part and problem solved. you are overcomplicating this part, there is no need for 3d milling that is way out of the way and it can be made much easier than that. listen if you guys feel you have better ways of doing this then by all means go do it. i joined up here to tell the ones in need of part 27 that i will be making some. if you dont like the way i do it or the way i mill it then by all means go back to your shitty pot metal we part.

im not here to argue with you guys, or play "who is better" or what is better, im simply informing you i will have parts made.

MadMax · March 26th, 2011, 03:41

Yeah, like I said, you'll need soft jaws and a core to support the opening in the middle.

Quote:

If you are here to argue then leave now. im not here to deal with you guys arguing me on this. if you think you can do better go make your own. For now (like if said 10 times now) im starting with aluminum.

I was taking issue with you telling anyone who disagreed with you to leave. It's great that you want to take the issue to your mill. I can't stand making anything complicated more than twice. That's what CNC is for.

deadlydayne · March 26th, 2011, 04:00

what im saying is dont tell me how to run my shop or what to do with it. ive said plenty of times what im doing how and why. its fairly simple. and what issue am i taking to my mill exactly? from what im seeing while designing this part theres really not a big issue with it. its not hard or complicated.

deadlydayne · March 26th, 2011, 04:07

what im saying is dont tell me how to run my shop or what to do with it. ive said plenty of times what im doing how and why. its fairly simple. and what issue am i taking to my mill exactly? from what im seeing while designing this part theres really not a big issue with it. its not hard or complicated.

ThunderCactus · March 26th, 2011, 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMax

or even a junky Haas mill.

DON'T I KNOW IT lol
Tried to convince the boss to atleast buy a Doosan, he didn't bite. Bought another shitball HAAS and it'll be here in 4 weeks.
On the bright side, it forces you to be a crack G-code programmer since you have to eliminate vibration through better programming instead of more rigid tooling lol
Pushing your tooling to it's limit is way harder on a piece of crap machine than it is on a rigid machine!

MadMax · March 26th, 2011, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadlydayne

what im saying is dont tell me how to run my shop or what to do with it. ive said plenty of times what im doing how and why. its fairly simple. and what issue am i taking to my mill exactly? from what im seeing while designing this part theres really not a big issue with it. its not hard or complicated.

Mr. Dayne, I'm not trying to stir up sh*t with that statement. I meant to indicate approval that you were happy to charge ahead and mill the parts yourself. There are few individuals with machining experience in airsoft. A further fraction of them have equipment and only some of them have the time or inclination to but carbide to metal and make something. It's great that you're one of these rare few who are going to do just that.

I think there's some sort of communications or language gap between us Mr. Dayne. I bet if we were having this conversation at a pub you wouldn't be so affronted and there's be a pile of napkins with drawings on them. Sometimes users of dboards lament that text doesn't convey sarcasm well. I think in this case ASC is conveying it when it's not intended.

ThunderCactus: I just got in a used Matsuura mill. Fairly old at 1996, but man this thing built like Tiger tank. I wish I could run other jobs on it, but it's tied up on a contract. We're running it 24hrs on a custom bar feeder and the spindle is spinning about 85% of the time and cutting about 65% of the time at 6000rpm. Bearing assembly doesn't even get warm. I love the high end used equipment market.

deadlydayne · March 26th, 2011, 09:57

you are right and i apologize, i really hate talking online as you said sarcasm and other emotions are hard to display thru text. i must be picking everything up wrong :-( that and i may need sleep too, been up since thursday at 3 :-)

BloodSport · March 26th, 2011, 10:44

deadlydayne you do realize you just survived an arguement with the Godfather of Airsoft Innovations? The creater of the almighty Propane Adpator, The Tornado Airsoft Grenade systems? I started sweating after your first response to him.

I swear there are those on these forums who still pray to MadMax as many would to a deity.

MadMax · March 26th, 2011, 10:49

[facepalm]This is the interwebs. "Winning" an argument is like winning the speshul olympics. Even if you win, you're still en retard. Dammit, where's the accent aigu tag?[/facepalm]

Ross · March 26th, 2011, 11:37

wow that was crazy. I had no idea what anyone was talking about. Just glad it all turned to smiles in the end.

Lord Jebus · March 26th, 2011, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadlydayne

what did i say jebus?
"i absolutely hate it. It may work for some applications but not for what this." Deadlydayne

If you are here to argue then leave now. im not here to deal with you guys arguing me on this. if you think you can do better go make your own. For now (like if said 10 times now) im starting with aluminum.

Wow Dude! Go take a time out! I'm not here to argue and I didn't tell you how to do it... Read what I said again and just so you don't have to go looking here it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Jebus

What do you think they do when they make engine blocks for you car or truck?
Cast! Cast is not worthless... the materials you use to cast may be... but the process is tried and true!

All I was trying to say was that your statement...

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadlydayne

I will not cast anything. wether it be steel aluminum, carbide, tool steel anything. i wont touch it. Cast is worthless, just a quick and cheap way of building something, that inevitably will fail much faster than billet. it looks shitty, and well quite honestly is shitty.

^^ Is FALSE! The Casting process has been around for 100yrs or more! There is nothing wrong with the process. HOWEVER, if you use a cheap alloy, the your product will not be strong. Use the right metal and your product will be just as strong if not stronger than than billet! Your weight might be an issue, but I don't think this matters in this case.

So here's a tip, You don't need to be an ASS! We are all friends here. I am not your enemy. Nor are the others around here. This is a public forum and we all have a right to our opinions. So can we kiss and make up now?

Cheers!

Edit: I apologize if this sounded like I was trying to stir the pot... I hadn't read all the posts before this one. However, I was only trying to clarify.

megabeers · March 26th, 2011, 12:57

interesting discussion. i would have to agree the part doesnt look overly complicated, but looks like quite a few square internal corners that would be nicely suited for EDM. it could probably be cleverly made as an assembly with some simple 2D programming.

MadMax · March 26th, 2011, 13:17

I'm going to ignore the pot stirring and focus on the materials discussion.

Generally speaking mechanical properties are worst in aluminum and steel casting processes. That isn't to say that they're absolute sh*t, but generally they don't do as well as machined parts made from forged billet when comparing equivalent alloys. There are also significant quality issues with casting. High volume moulds are designed to optimize material flow and prevent voids. Because each mould is different, there may be a little iteration required to get things just right. In the case of billet stock, generic shapes (like rectangular bar) are well optimized in hot rolling processes. There is good consistency in billet production.

Machining a cast billet gives parts which are no better than cast parts (barring voids in the castings). Sometimes a part that's machined from cast billet is even worse than a cast part because of stress concentrations produced by sharp cutter edges pushed through inside corners.

The 6061 specification put onto aluminum stock indicates an alloy specification. It ONLY specifies the concentrations of various alloying elements. The T6 specification usually applied to billet 6061-T6 indicates an age hardening process. Most aluminum alloys are strengthened by aging them for hours or days at moderate temperatures (about 160C) after hot rolling.

In the case of aluminum, most cast parts are not 6xxx alloys. I think they're often 5xxx which typically isn't as strong, but there some very well performing lithium (7xxx I think) alloys which are castable. Most bar stock is not cold forged so they perform roughly comparably to well produced castings which have been age hardened.

If you want the ultimate in material performance with aluminum, you can rough cast a shape then cold forge it. Slam it between dies with hydraulics just like Shimano does. Shimano XTR components are often drop forged aluminum parts that are finish machined (hole threading etc). They represent some of the the lightest strongest aluminum parts that can be made.

Similar issues are present with most steel parts, with the exception that steel is usually quench hardened (rapidly cooled) and tempered (held warm for a period). The quench hardening increases hardness, tempering reduces brittleness. Steel and aluminum use very different thermal processing.

megabeers is right on the money for a relatively low setup part. Sinker EDM with generic electrodes could be a fairly quick way to produce parts with low tooling issues. Hell on machine time, but I'm not sure how expensive the machine time is. You can also work in prehardened 4140 steel and make it an artillery part. Some rough machining would reduce a lot of the burn time.

If you're really interested in material properties, check out: www.matweb.com

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March 26th, 2011, 02:43	#77
MadMax Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop	deadlydane: I think you're getting emotionally attached to a particular implementation for this part. In every particular process using materials, there are best practices to follow and not all fabricators will follow them. For instance, WE cast the original part in materiel which is not particularly strong probably not paying much attention to thermal processing (annealing or age hardening etc), material quality (contaminants such as graphite or slag), much less part design (sharp corners concentrating stress). A poorly cast airsoft gun part made in cheese metal does not compare to a responsibly cast part made in a good steel without heavy graphite inclusions. You may not be aware that Armalite receivers start out as rough castings of aluminum. An Armalite receiver starts out as a rough casting which is broached (to receive the magazine) and finished machined to receive the trigger group. Despite being cast, Armalite receivers generally meet the needs for a rugged combat weapon and significantly exceed the needs of chairsofting. The castings coming out of Colt's suppliers are not comparable to the scatstings coming out of WE's shop. There are only two or three suppliers of rough castings supplying the significant appetite for Armalite variants in the US. The design of the part in question is not well suited to being machined. There are some pretty thin sections which would require 3d machining from billet stock with the center pocket done last. If you have access to 5 axis milling, you could drill all the cross holes before opening up the center pocket. After the shape is finished, you could probably bandsaw off the end, but you'd have to put a CNC shaped plug inside the center and clamp the outside with a shape milled into soft jaws to fly cut finish the rough cut end. I would figure that it'd take about 15min of machining time per part, 8hrs to make the custom tooling, and 5hrs of CAD/CAM time if you give your machine shop the original part. Most shops wouldn't be very happy with the CAD models provided by most amateurs. Too many poorly knitted surfaces so it's difficult to economize there. Besides, most airsofters don't have a granite plate and a CMM or even a pair of calipers. It's difficult to make an accurate CAD model without some decent gauging tools. So, figure $120/hr for the machine time [$30] (5 axis is quite a machine!), $70/hr for the tooling and CAD time [$910] for a total of $940. Almost all of your costs are in the CAD/tooling setup costs. Even if you run a billion parts and amortize your tooling, a cost of $30 is high for the machine time and it will be difficult to get lower without financing your own Deckel Maho or even a junky Haas mill. Or, you can painstakingly mill the thing yourself on a manual mill with multiple setups and some custom jigs made on said mill. Make a single mistake in about a thousand moves done in say 10 Z layers and you have a piece of junk. You might as well take the plunge and make it in steel which doesn't have the same fatigue problems as aluminum. Don't forget that this is a public forum. You don't own this thread and there are many contributors. Just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean you have to violently object to it. Some players might decide to go with different techniques than you and quashing a discussion that isn't going your way isn't a good way to get a good practical discussion on a public forum. __________________ Want nearly free GBB gas? Last edited by MadMax; March 26th, 2011 at 02:46..

March 26th, 2011, 10:44	#85
BloodSport Traveling Man Trader rating Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan	deadlydayne you do realize you just survived an arguement with the Godfather of Airsoft Innovations? The creater of the almighty Propane Adpator, The Tornado Airsoft Grenade systems? I started sweating after your first response to him. I swear there are those on these forums who still pray to MadMax as many would to a deity. __________________ Saskatchewan Age Verifier! Contact for more Info.

March 26th, 2011, 10:49	#86
MadMax Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop	[facepalm]This is the interwebs. "Winning" an argument is like winning the speshul olympics. Even if you win, you're still en retard. Dammit, where's the accent aigu tag?[/facepalm] __________________ Want nearly free GBB gas?

March 26th, 2011, 00:41	#76
deadlydayne Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Michigan, USA	what did i say jebus? "i absolutely hate it. It may work for some applications but not for what this." Deadlydayne If you are here to argue then leave now. im not here to deal with you guys arguing me on this. if you think you can do better go make your own. For now (like if said 10 times now) im starting with aluminum.

March 26th, 2011, 02:53	#78
deadlydayne Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Michigan, USA	or a smart machinist would make what people call soft jaws, you know aluminum jaws that bolt onto vices, cut the vice jaws to hold the part and problem solved. you are overcomplicating this part, there is no need for 3d milling that is way out of the way and it can be made much easier than that. listen if you guys feel you have better ways of doing this then by all means go do it. i joined up here to tell the ones in need of part 27 that i will be making some. if you dont like the way i do it or the way i mill it then by all means go back to your shitty pot metal we part. im not here to argue with you guys, or play "who is better" or what is better, im simply informing you i will have parts made.

March 26th, 2011, 04:00	#80
deadlydayne Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Michigan, USA	what im saying is dont tell me how to run my shop or what to do with it. ive said plenty of times what im doing how and why. its fairly simple. and what issue am i taking to my mill exactly? from what im seeing while designing this part theres really not a big issue with it. its not hard or complicated.

March 26th, 2011, 04:07	#81
deadlydayne Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Michigan, USA	what im saying is dont tell me how to run my shop or what to do with it. ive said plenty of times what im doing how and why. its fairly simple. and what issue am i taking to my mill exactly? from what im seeing while designing this part theres really not a big issue with it. its not hard or complicated.

March 26th, 2011, 09:57	#84
deadlydayne Trader rating Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Michigan, USA	you are right and i apologize, i really hate talking online as you said sarcasm and other emotions are hard to display thru text. i must be picking everything up wrong :-( that and i may need sleep too, been up since thursday at 3 :-)

March 26th, 2011, 11:37	#87
Ross Trader rating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Winnipeg	wow that was crazy. I had no idea what anyone was talking about. Just glad it all turned to smiles in the end. __________________

March 26th, 2011, 12:57	#89
megabeers Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Peterborough, Ontario	interesting discussion. i would have to agree the part doesnt look overly complicated, but looks like quite a few square internal corners that would be nicely suited for EDM. it could probably be cleverly made as an assembly with some simple 2D programming.

March 26th, 2011, 13:17	#90
MadMax Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop	I'm going to ignore the pot stirring and focus on the materials discussion. Generally speaking mechanical properties are worst in aluminum and steel casting processes. That isn't to say that they're absolute sht, but generally they don't do as well as machined parts made from forged billet when comparing equivalent alloys. There are also significant quality issues with casting. High volume moulds are designed to optimize material flow and prevent voids. Because each mould is different, there may be a little iteration required to get things just right. In the case of billet stock, generic shapes (like rectangular bar) are well optimized in hot rolling processes. There is good consistency in billet production. Machining a cast billet gives parts which are no better than cast parts (barring voids in the castings). Sometimes a part that's machined from cast billet is even worse than a cast part because of stress concentrations produced by sharp cutter edges pushed through inside corners. The 6061 specification put onto aluminum stock indicates an alloy specification. It ONLY specifies the concentrations of various alloying elements. The T6 specification usually applied to billet 6061-T6 indicates an age hardening process. Most aluminum alloys are strengthened by aging them for hours or days at moderate temperatures (about 160C) after hot rolling. In the case of aluminum, most cast parts are not 6xxx alloys. I think they're often 5xxx which typically isn't as strong, but there some very well performing lithium (7xxx I think) alloys which are castable. Most bar stock is not cold forged so they perform roughly comparably to well produced castings which have been age hardened. If you want the ultimate in material performance with aluminum, you can rough cast a shape then cold forge it. Slam it between dies with hydraulics just like Shimano does. Shimano XTR components are often drop forged aluminum parts that are finish machined (hole threading etc). They represent some of the the lightest strongest aluminum parts that can be made. Similar issues are present with most steel parts, with the exception that steel is usually quench hardened (rapidly cooled) and tempered (held warm for a period). The quench hardening increases hardness, tempering reduces brittleness. Steel and aluminum use very different thermal processing. megabeers is right on the money for a relatively low setup part. Sinker EDM with generic electrodes could be a fairly quick way to produce parts with low tooling issues. Hell on machine time, but I'm not sure how expensive the machine time is. You can also work in prehardened 4140 steel and make it an artillery part. Some rough machining would reduce a lot of the burn time. If you're really interested in material properties, check out: www.matweb.com __________________ Want nearly free GBB gas?* Last edited by MadMax; March 26th, 2011 at 13:19..

Looking for a good machinist!

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