Airsoft Canada
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/

Go Back   Airsoft Canada > Discussion > Accessories Discussion
Home Forums Register Gallery FAQ Calendar
Retailers Community News/Info International Retailers IRC Today's Posts

IR Lasers & DBAL's at games.

:

Accessories Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 29th, 2013, 01:47   #76
mmmken
 
mmmken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Markham, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltastone View Post
Never said there was a guarantee. I just said I seriously doubt a reputable retailer would offer a product that has a 100% failure rate and at significant cost.

A civilian has been approved to own a Class 1 laser. That means the option is on the table. Are you on some sort of No Fly list? Is your name bin Laden? Did you say Blackbriar over the telephone? Probably not a good idea to even try.
What are you debating exactly?

No one said there was a 100% failure rate here. All I said was that its really risky, and no one knows what is involved in the approval process - and that this included Rampart themselves. They are just as clueless as we are, except that they had a single instance where a request has gone through. ITAR is serious business to the US Government, and IMO, I'm not sure its as straightforward as just paying a (relatively) measly $300 for their most valued military technologies.
__________________
Age Verifier - Unionville and Markham.
mmmken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2013, 01:59   #77
Derpystronk
 
Derpystronk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southern Ontario
My posts are clear in their intent and what they are "debating." I have said in both posts there is risk. That risk directly correlates to whether or not you are on some sort of hidden list.

I'll be taking it to PM's as to not clutter the thread.
__________________
Airsoft Community & Events
http://www.OP4S.com
Derpystronk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 04:22   #78
Aj619
 
Aj619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hamilton On.
So are there any affordable lasers that are also eye safe

Sorry about the kinda necro but I don't want to start a new thread
Aj619 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 05:12   #79
McKee
Merica'
 
McKee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Send a message via MSN to McKee
Why even bother with lasers. Seriously. My eyes are literally my livelihood as far as the air force is concerned. I lose eyesight, I lose job. At the average milsim game, I'd say about 90% of players do not have any sort of NVD (except flashlights). Of the 10% that do, some of them are using older tech NVD like old russian stuff, active NVD, and handheld units. So if you own any AN/PVS series NVG, you already are at a significant, clear advantage over a considerable number of players. If aiming is that much of an issue: get closer, use tracers, get a better sight, learn to use iron sights, use judo, or find any number of solutions that do not involve expensive, potentially dangerous lasers.

It's an issue of enforcement. Like FPS limits, you can chrony people but ultimately there are ways to have a hot gun (ask yourself how often a host uses THEIR bbs and ensures the hop up is off, and what about that hot gun in buddy's car he gets after chronied?). At least FPS though is easily tested. With lasers, you would have to show documentation and know that each person has a laser and you have no test. If someone wants to use a cheaper, unsafe laser: they may decide not to mention it (after all its easy to hide and not noticeable unless you have NVGs). The laser might also be a knockoff that doesn't actually meet the specified standards.

Plus there is the issue of player consent. I have consented to have you fire bbs at me, that is why I am playing airsoft. I have a reasonable expectation of that. I did not consent to have you fire powerful lasers at me, even if there is a safe level. There is a safe level of radiation in X-rays too but I don't want you firing an x-ray machine into my thyroid all day either. Again my opinion, but its airsoft for fucks sake.. you have NVGs, you already basically have cheat codes on, cool it with the advantages.
__________________
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side" - Han Solo

Commanding in Airsoft
McKee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 06:51   #80
Derpystronk
 
Derpystronk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southern Ontario
McKee I understand your stance on the matter. You bring up valid points.

One of the things that is becoming more and more common at games is the player regulation regarding night vision and lasers. Alot of the more educated players who have had Night Vision tend to touch base with the players who don't. I have seen a few times where someone pulled another player aside because their laser seemed just a bit too bright, and found out it was a G&P DBAL. In pretty much every one of those cases the offending players didn't know any better.

The issue needs to be addressed by game hosts more diligently. For Hornet I've went (as some might suggest) a little far in requiring all players register every device that contains a laser. Element PEQ-16 where you are using only the Flashlight? Come see me before the game. Real PEQ-Whatever? It's in the book now. A number of games say they will be preforming spot chronies of players, but never do. I will actively be running the field looking at peoples guns, checking their lasers and referring to the registry. I see someone use a laser and I find they didn't register it? They are sent home immediately. This much will be made clear during the safety brief, and I've already touched on it in the rules post.

The issue is that there are a number of hosts that don't know about the dangers that some of these lasers pose, or some don't even know they exist/are being fielded. This is as much as it is an education effort for these hosts to make them aware of the situation. But it's like you said, people will bring shit onto the field without consent. Is it right? No. It should be the hosts job to make sure everything that is on the field is safe. Failing that, it becomes the players responsibility to inform the host of the situation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a .7mw laser. The issue is someone thinking they know better and bringing some Russian IR Illuminator laser focused down to a dot onto the field thinking it's fine. It needs to be an education effort on the players part. A large percentage of the time the players learn, understand, and buy something better(read: safe). The ones that don't are going to be told to GTFO and won't be welcome at any decent game.

The sad thing is they might go somewhere else and injure someone anyways :/
__________________
Airsoft Community & Events
http://www.OP4S.com

Last edited by Derpystronk; February 9th, 2013 at 06:54..
Derpystronk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 11:51   #81
horto
 
horto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
I'm with McKee. Lasers should be banned at games. Not just IR, all lasers. Why? Simple - I have been lased in the eyes too many times at too many different games over the years.

You can keep your fancy nvgs, but fuck off with the lasers. They're MY eyes.

I don't care that some of the ASC population are responsible laser wielders, there are ten times more irresponsible/ignorant players. And you can't fix stupid. Especially not here.

It's a safety issue. The risks outweigh any benefit. Ban them.
__________________
H-61 "Acta non verba"
They see us rollin, they hatin...

Last edited by horto; February 9th, 2013 at 12:29..
horto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 13:00   #82
Gato
ASC's Whiny Bitch
 
Gato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North York, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by horto View Post
I'm with McKee. Lasers should be banned at games. Not just IR, all lasers. Why? Simple - I have been lased in the eyes too many times at too many different games over the years.

You can keep your fancy nvgs, but fuck off with the lasers. They're MY eyes.

I don't care that some of the ASC population are responsible laser wielders, there are ten times more irresponsible/ignorant players. And you can't fix stupid. Especially not here.

It's a safety issue. The risks outweigh any benefit. Ban them.
Finally, people who share my opinion.

As well as the concerns about eyes there is zero need for a LTD or LAM at an airsoft game, you're engaging targets at 50-100 feet in the best of conditions. The risks far outweigh the benefit of them, keeping in mind, the benefits are nothing more than "cool factor".

In regards to "responsible" users, you're using military technology, none of you are trained to use it. Sure, you might try aim low, but there is always going to be accidents or occasions where you pan the laser and wind up hitting someone in the face. I'm glad having a laser lets you fulfill your inner desire to play out your Task Force Daisychain fantasies, but leave them at home.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Like seriously dude. The incredible lack of common sense in the question could be scientifically investigated for evidence of a black hole.
Certified Level 3.1415926 Sniper Certified
Certified Level 3.1415926 Orbital Weapons platform Certified
Gato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 13:45   #83
McKee
Merica'
 
McKee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Send a message via MSN to McKee
@ Deltastone

I agree with your points. An education effort does need to be made, and there is an onus on the player to ensure safety. To be perfectly frank I would be OK with lasers if there was a fool-proof way to guarantee that every laser device on a field was safe. However, conditions in airsoft are never perfect. Even the best host with an intimate knowledge of laser tech cannot be everywhere at once. Even if he was, as I said, even if you recognize a device to be a AN/PVS xxx which is safe, it may be a knockoff that doesn't actually meet the standards (some knockoff tech is pretty convincing), or it may have different power settings, or someone may hide it from a host, etc. There is just no fool-proof way to guarantee safety. As far as FPS is concerned we can spot chrony and what not, and thats great. But at the end of the day if some cock-knocker shoots me point blank with a hot gun (which has happened), my bloody welts will heal in a few days. You can't say the same for eyesight.

I trust a guy like c3sk or bean with a laser. Chris and Ryan know their tech, I know them to be trustworthy, and more importantly I know where they live. It's the random dude that shows up to a game that I've never seen before with no apparent ASC handle that doesn't know the game rules, can't even manage to wear the right camo, and hardly speaks an official language. That guy can fire a fucking death star laser into my retina and disappear into anonymity without me even knowing about it. The only 100% way to guarantee safety is no lasers at all (and even then someone can bring a laser, as I said the host can't be everywhere).
__________________
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side" - Han Solo

Commanding in Airsoft
McKee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 13:58   #84
bean
Administrator
 
bean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Send a message via MSN to bean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gato View Post
Finally, people who share my opinion.

As well as the concerns about eyes there is zero need for a LTD or LAM at an airsoft game, you're engaging targets at 50-100 feet in the best of conditions. The risks far outweigh the benefit of them, keeping in mind, the benefits are nothing more than "cool factor".

In regards to "responsible" users, you're using military technology, none of you are trained to use it. Sure, you might try aim low, but there is always going to be accidents or occasions where you pan the laser and wind up hitting someone in the face. I'm glad having a laser lets you fulfill your inner desire to play out your Task Force Daisychain fantasies, but leave them at home.
I'm not sure if you understand how lasers are employed in urban areas if don't consider that to be a valid use of one both in the military and in airsoft. More often then not you are deploying a laser in those situations in real life.

As for the argument I can see both sides of the fence. At Rhino 2 one of the tan players decided to continually hit me in the eyes with his laser even as I was screaming at him to sort his shit out. I have also seen many lasers in games where the rules say dont bring a fucking laser. Its much like a hot gun or a guy using a thunder b.

As Alex says there are certain people I would trust with a laser, who know what they are using and know the safety precautions. There are also a lot of airsofters I wouldn't trust with a whistle.

Even if things are banned people are still retards and will try and circumvent the rules. I think we should just euthanize stupid players :P.

If lasers are banned at a game I am completely cool with that same as if they are allowed to continue. I have no issues walking over and sorting people out. Lasers I see more of something you would see more in a small game where everyone knows each other. Big games with 250 people can be a cluster fuck with regards to safety being ingored.

I spent $4400 dollars on my eyes which was much more then I paid for my laser. My eyes cant be replaced.
bean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 15:25   #85
McKee
Merica'
 
McKee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Send a message via MSN to McKee
Quote:
Originally Posted by bean View Post
I spent $4400 dollars on my eyes which was much more then I paid for my laser.
I knew you were a robit.
__________________
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side" - Han Solo

Commanding in Airsoft
McKee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 15:34   #86
bean
Administrator
 
bean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Send a message via MSN to bean
I got the better one. My eyes wont liquify if I pull mad g's. You never know how fast you can get an office chair going.

In all seriousness lasers to me are a lot like a bolt action firing 500+ fps. If the user is responsible and the unit is safe I am fine with it. However its hard to enforce with people using laser boxes as battery cases etc.

Last edited by bean; February 9th, 2013 at 15:36..
bean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 15:45   #87
horto
 
horto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
... Which is exactly why all lasers should be banned at games.
__________________
H-61 "Acta non verba"
They see us rollin, they hatin...
horto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 15:47   #88
Gato
ASC's Whiny Bitch
 
Gato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North York, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by bean View Post
I'm not sure if you understand how lasers are employed in urban areas if don't consider that to be a valid use of one both in the military and in airsoft. More often then not you are deploying a laser in those situations in real life.

As for the argument I can see both sides of the fence. At Rhino 2 one of the tan players decided to continually hit me in the eyes with his laser even as I was screaming at him to sort his shit out. I have also seen many lasers in games where the rules say dont bring a fucking laser. Its much like a hot gun or a guy using a thunder b.

As Alex says there are certain people I would trust with a laser, who know what they are using and know the safety precautions. There are also a lot of airsofters I wouldn't trust with a whistle.

Even if things are banned people are still retards and will try and circumvent the rules. I think we should just euthanize stupid players :P.

If lasers are banned at a game I am completely cool with that same as if they are allowed to continue. I have no issues walking over and sorting people out. Lasers I see more of something you would see more in a small game where everyone knows each other. Big games with 250 people can be a cluster fuck with regards to safety being ingored.

I spent $4400 dollars on my eyes which was much more then I paid for my laser. My eyes cant be replaced.

I understand exactly how they are employed in reality and training, I have also employed them during training. If this discussion were about the use of lasers during training or operations in a real setting, I wouldn't be chiming in here, but it's not. The difference here is we're throwing 6mm BBs at each other, at a relatively low FPS, supposedly in the name of nothing more than fun. We are not conducting a military operation that requires military technology and we are not trying to put a target down permanently. If you could indicate a legitimate, life or death benefit of these devices for airsoft, not the military, go for it, otherwise they are nothing more than an elitist toy with inherent safety issues.

I also spend $4000 on my eyes, I have no way to guarantee people aren't lazing me with their lasers as I can't see them. Unlike McKee, I don't trust a single person with these devices, none of them have received training on these things, if we're lucky, they MIGHT have glanced in the direction of the manual at some point. Even if they are "responsible", there's nothing stopping them from lazing people unknowingly or by accident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horto View Post
... Which is exactly why all lasers should be banned at games.
While I 100% agree, it won't happen, those who have the toys are the ones everyone listens to. They have the money and the toys, so obviously they know more. We all know who they are, and I think we can all agree, their opinions will probably be listened to more than our because they're the ASC "cool kids"
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Like seriously dude. The incredible lack of common sense in the question could be scientifically investigated for evidence of a black hole.
Certified Level 3.1415926 Sniper Certified
Certified Level 3.1415926 Orbital Weapons platform Certified
Gato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 15:48   #89
bean
Administrator
 
bean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Send a message via MSN to bean
Now to play the devils advocate how do you feel about the banning real steel guns because some people cant act responsibly? Same logic you could get shot so if we get rid of them all by your theory your now safer.

Sadly not everything is absolute.
bean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 15:55   #90
McKee
Merica'
 
McKee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Send a message via MSN to McKee
Quote:
Originally Posted by bean View Post
Now to play the devils advocate how do you feel about the banning real steel guns because some people cant act responsibly? Same logic you could get shot so if we get rid of them all by your theory your now safer.

Sadly not everything is absolute.
Not really a fair comparison though Ryan. In no circumstance are you going to be shooting real steel at anyone unless you are trying to kill them. Their legal purpose is to shoot targets and animals, and are never to be even aimed at a person. Lasers, as far as airsoft is concerned, have the sole purpose of shooting directly at a person.

I am a trained CF soldier and have earned my marksman badge. I have been proven responsible and competent with a rifle. Would you trust me to shoot an apple off the top of your head with live ammunition? If people routinely were shooting apples off each others head then I would argue yes, by banning real steel people are safer.
__________________
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side" - Han Solo

Commanding in Airsoft
McKee is offline   Reply With Quote
ReplyTop


Go Back   Airsoft Canada > Discussion > Accessories Discussion

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Airsoft Canada
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.