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Proper way to PROVE gun is safe?

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Tactics, Techniques and Procedures

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Old December 25th, 2015, 18:51   #16
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Originally Posted by Danke View Post
It's required because you'll be seizing real firearms (at times loaded) at the border and you'll have to make them safe and secure them on the spot.
Ah I see. That makes much more sense, although CBSA designates military experience with firearms not suitable for this purpose. What the military does compared to the CFSC/CRFSC is beyond my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Dracheous View Post
Ya'll laugh, but looking down the barrel is in fact IN the damn PAL course as part of how you prove a weapon safe.

It is always the last part of the process; you would never start with looking down the barrel. Because you have cleared the magazine from the firearm, and checked the chamber for any live munition at this point examining the barrel should be safe. The reality is at that point with an open action and cleared chamber the only possible way you get injured by looking down the barrel is two stage munitions. Seeing as HE/Incendiary are prohibited you're pretty much 100% safe.

It is also an important part of proving the firearm SAFE to ensure that there is no debris or blockage in the barrel. the gun is not SAFE to load and fire if this is not ensured. Proving safe is not only for cleaning and storage but future use as well.
PAL course is the CFSC and/or CRFSC I assume? I don't see anything out there about the PAL course as a 3rd and separate course.

I took both of them, and yes, the instructor did in fact show the consequences of debris/blockage in the barrel. Not the looney-toons exaggerated mushrooming of the bore, but something very similar.

I guess I didn't get the message that looking down the bore is ONLY to look for obstructions that were NOT live-ammunition. I had assumed that there was still a possibility of ammunition going down the barrel past the breach where the barrel holds the cartridge in place, so I felt iffy about looking down the bore even after the chamber is cleared.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 21:13   #17
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Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
NEVER-EVER look down the barrel, was what I was taught as well, unless of course the barrel is removed. Use a light.
Well, I have no idea who taught you, but you were taught contrary to both the CFSC and reality of things.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 21:18   #18
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Well, I have no idea who taught you, but you were taught contrary to both the CFSC and reality of things.
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Originally Posted by RainyEyes View Post
Ah I see. That makes much more sense, although CBSA designates military experience with firearms not suitable for this purpose. What the military does compared to the CFSC/CRFSC is beyond my knowledge.
How to best use it to kill a mother fucker......... that's essentially what we get taught. It's not a negotiation tool, to look cool, to shoot pop cans or any other purpose. We have it so we can use it to kill people if the need arises/order comes. To further this end, we're taught to maintain it.

That's why the military is usually not applicable in terms of firearms training. We're not really taught to identify multiple types of firearms in order to determine their "Classification" or anything along the lines of what CBSA might do.

As a Supply Tech or Weapons Tech, out interaction with weapons may come a bit closer to what they'd be after, but the main focus on weapons in the CF is to train you do use them for what they're intended for.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 21:24   #19
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Originally Posted by Gato View Post
How to best use it to kill a mother fucker......... that's essentially what we get taught. It's not a negotiation tool, to look cool, to shoot pop cans or any other purpose. We have it so we can use it to kill people if the need arises/order comes. To further this end, we're taught to maintain it.

That's why the military is usually not applicable in terms of firearms training. We're not really taught to identify multiple types of firearms in order to determine their "Classification" or anything along the lines of what CBSA might do.
The one thing I learned that supports this is that when crossing a fence or stream of water, it is mandatory to cross it while firearms are unloaded and PROVE'd safe. Probably not applicable for military positions where I'd rather be killed by my own team from their carelessness/accidental discharge than the enemy when I could have defended myself with a weapon that SHOULD be loaded.

We had a few military guys there question the other techniques, like pulling the trigger to see if there is a round left in the chamber after it has been emptied or something. Things that you would do at a military range but not a civilian one.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 21:31   #20
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Originally Posted by RainyEyes View Post
The one thing I learned that supports this is that when crossing a fence or stream of water, it is mandatory to cross it while firearms are unloaded and PROVE'd safe. Probably not applicable for military positions where I'd rather be killed by my own team from their carelessness/accidental discharge than the enemy when I could have defended myself with a weapon that SHOULD be loaded.

We had a few military guys there question the other techniques, like pulling the trigger to see if there is a round left in the chamber after it has been emptied or something. Things that you would do at a military range but not a civilian one.
We get taught to keep fingers off triggers and shit much more than civilians do, I've never crossed a stream or over a fence and unloaded my weapon just because of that. We don't generally walk around with rounds chambered, but we don't remove mags just to do shit, you might pass the rifle to your buddy to climb a fence, but you're just as likely to just keep it slung or something.

You'd never pull a trigger to see if it's loaded.
How I was taught to check was to yank the mag, cock it with the ejection port facing the floor, watch for a round to come out, turn it over, cock it again, this time holding the bolt back, and observe the chamber. If it's empty, let the charging handle go, fire off the action and close the ejection port cover. This can literally be done in under an actual second or two
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Last edited by Gato; December 25th, 2015 at 21:33..
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Old December 27th, 2015, 15:03   #21
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Originally Posted by Gato View Post
How I was taught to check was to yank the mag, cock it with the ejection port facing the floor, watch for a round to come out, turn it over, cock it again, this time holding the bolt back, and observe the chamber. If it's empty, let the charging handle go, fire off the action and close the ejection port cover. This can literally be done in under an actual second or two
What you have just described is more or less how people outside of government safety courses actually do things. Never in my life have I seen anyone do the "PROVE dance" after that course
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Old December 27th, 2015, 17:17   #22
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Originally Posted by RainyEyes View Post
I only took the course since it is a requirement for applying to CBSA. I assumed it was because they don't want idiots to misidentify airsoft guns for real ones and seize everything. That, and I'm not sure if they require a PAL or RPAL to transport the firearms. Not too sure about this aspect of the job.
more like because you will wear a duty pistol on your hip...
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Old December 27th, 2015, 17:20   #23
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Originally Posted by Handsonic View Post
I was told that for pistols, you remove mag, rack rack rack, look down barrel from chamber side, put thumb in chamber, look down barrel from the muzzle. No idea about rifles though.
the RPAL course showed a old movie doing this.. then said: don't do this.. it's freaking stupid. To prove empty, use the cleaning rod.

And that folks, is a good instructor!
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Old December 27th, 2015, 18:47   #24
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Originally Posted by Pinard View Post
more like because you will wear a duty pistol on your hip...
According to their website, CBSA officers don't carry firearms, but I suppose that is aggregate information that is relative to the position and duties assigned.

Would that mean that a PAL/RPAL is required for the position? Or is it like police services that give you the firearm with alternative documentation?
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Old December 29th, 2015, 20:16   #25
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Originally Posted by RainyEyes View Post
According to their website, CBSA officers don't carry firearms, but I suppose that is aggregate information that is relative to the position and duties assigned.

Would that mean that a PAL/RPAL is required for the position? Or is it like police services that give you the firearm with alternative documentation?
it is ongoing (arming the agents)

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-ag.../menu-eng.html

also yes, they require you to have passed the CRFSC

Quote:
Basic requirements before you apply
You must demonstrate:

Successful completion of a secondary school education;
Possession of a valid driver's license;
Successful completion of the Canadian Firearms Safety Course (CFSC) and the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course (CRFSC) and pass the tests. Please visit the Canadian Firearms Program for more information.
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/job-emplo...auche-eng.html
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Old July 5th, 2016, 16:57   #26
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In any job where you potentially will come in contact with a firearm, you're required to have the appropriate licensing and training. Even in the movies...technicians have to have a restricted PAL in order to handle the replica firearms and blank ammunition. If there's a chance you'll encounter a weapon, you have to be certified. You have to be able to know and understand whether or not somebody has a legit ATT, or that the firearm is properly acquired and stored.

As for practical handling and application, when out hunting, I've never seen any hunter unload and prove SAFE to cross a stream or climb over a fence. If hunting 'properly' you're usually out with a buddy anyways, so yeah...hand him the rifle, clear the obstacle then do likewise. If working in areas where predators are a problem (not shopping malls, the wilderness), you have to be loaded pretty much all the time. If a bear decides to run you down you don't have time to fumble for a mag. There will be no calling hit and heading for the respawn...umm, there might not even be a respawn...

In the case of a rifle or semi auto with a magazine, running around with one in the hole is not a completely sane idea, and chances are you can rack one fast enough to still get out of a jam without having to run around 'live'. If you've got a single shot, bolt action, bring a back up..hehehe...
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Old July 5th, 2016, 17:43   #27
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I remember when I did the course, the instructors knew a couple of us were military and told us to go along with what's being taught for now. Oh man, we were cringing with some of the things being taught. But one thing the instructors did bring up about us is our habit of keeping the finger off the trigger at all times until needed. He was saying to the civilians that if there's one thing you learn from the military about firearms safety that can apply here, is this.
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Old July 5th, 2016, 19:09   #28
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We were taught that looking down the barrel was an option in our course. Use a borelight, stare blankly into muzzle.
2 things; if you have to do this (muzzle loader, looking for debris, lodged bullet, whatevs)
1) use a bore light and point the barrel to the ground. See the light? No problem. Dont see the light? Obstruction.
2) muzzle loader; point flashlight into barrel, USE A GOD DAMN MIRROR to see down the bore.
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Old July 5th, 2016, 20:45   #29
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At Silvercore Firearms. I was taught to use a bore rod when examining the bore. Sometimes if you PROVE Safe in a lit room you can see light shining into the barrel.
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Old July 5th, 2016, 22:36   #30
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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
Looking down the barrel proves the gun is safe, clear and gives us the Darwin Award winner. It also serves as chlorine for the gene pool.

Win-win all around.
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