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Canceled Milsims, Refunds, Consumer Rights and a meta post about the community as well as those responsible for hosting events

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Old August 11th, 2017, 02:28   #16
Derpystronk
 
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Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
The event getting cancelled wasn't his fault and like every other group who's thrown an event they invest the event money into the event itself. I believe people are entitled to their money back and should get it. But those are the parameters everyone is working with. I don't know how he's setup his company or financials, but whatever it appears to be, it's actually an Airsoft team throwing the event, not some huge company.

.................................................. ..

You all have the right however to file a dispute, grab a lawyer, if that's what you want, and attempt to get your money back through ethical means. You don't need anyone's permission for that.
This is sort of what I touched on above - the have your cake and eat it too approach. Initially there was a call for sympathy and support, as someone in the community should - and then it quickly turns into a shitshow of how he is legally protected from liability, people are lucky to get their money back, the hire a lawyer idgaf lol approach, the threatening people over their only money into shutting up any criticism. It's really a question of - are you a member of a community, or a company who really couldn't care less? Or I guess on the second one: a bit of an asshole.

One of the things that makes this even far more complex is that there have been successful events run in the past (read: some levels of profits to dip into) and it appears the overwhelming majority of sunk costs into this events are on company assets that do not "go bad" so to speak. The idea that they couldn't pull out a business loan of some degree to pay for these assets and refund their customer base is a little concerning on it's own right.

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Originally Posted by Danke View Post
Yeah the folks running the event are trying to work the refunds so that everyone is treated equally. Folks that jump the line to get the first piece of the pie get a slap. from what I have seen in the posts they're trying to scale the refunds so that everyone gets an equal but not complete refund back to start and then as they unwind the other expenses they'll do that again.

..........................

I don't know how well written the agreement the organizers had with the landowner but they should have a pretty good case to purse him for costs. The problem with stuff like this is that the dollars are so low it's likely going through the courts will cost more than they'll get back.
No, this doesn't fly. People aren't getting refunded out of courtesy, or out of good will to the community... People are getting refunded because it's their money. They have a right to their money back. This wasn't some sort of venture capitalism thing where people are buying shares to invest in this event - this is people buying a product or service they didn't receive. Any and all costs fall on the business (especially if said business protects the individual from liability). There is no jumping of the cart - they are using legal tools to get back what is legally theirs. There is no real issue here.

You also have a length of time with your credit card to file that chargeback, otherwise you won't be able to after that. I imagine there is also some sort of practical limit to any reports to the RCMP and what not.

As far as the landowner comment goes, he very much could attempt to sue for damages. Canada is a bit weird with punitive damages and you have to very clearly prove damages. Not just lost profit, but actual damages. Owning a bunch of assets you can sell or use at future events as your "damages" might not convince a judge in small claims court.

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Originally Posted by nardac View Post
This is my 2 cents:

Unless you are running a game for buddies and charging a minimal fee to cover costs, then its a business, and should be treated as such. Players are the customer and should be treated the same way any other customer is.
I 100% agree with your post. I've been doing this for a long time as well and it really comes down to just basic business ethics - if I have taken money for something, those people get that something. If I don't provide it to them, they get it back. I'm personally very risk adverse so I don't open myself up to much financial liability, but there is always some liability to me if things go sideways. In the event that happens - if people want their money back, they are getting it back. I just have to run another successful game later down the line to break even on what happened.

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Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Ive had no reason to think this was ever a scam. Refunds have been going out, slower than stated by the organizer, but they're being sent nonetheless. If this were a scam, i imagine the organizer would have, more traditionally, not given out any statement, let alone refunds, sold all their shit and fled the province then bought a tour bus to restore lol
The reason why I made this thread trying to focus on simple facts is that we can speculate endlessly. I had a conversation with another member of the community awhile back and he brought up the point - "What if the event wasn't even real?" and outlined how you could sell X number of tickets at Y price, refund a certain number of them at half the price, then pocket a 5 figure balance in your pocket. Unreasonable, but totally possible... And if not this guy, whats to stop someone else from doing it if we normalize this behavior?

These speculations can go on endlessly - but the facts of the matter are really simple: If he's a business, he needs to actually act like one. The company took a risk here and lost. Doesn't matter why, it happens all the time. He is keeping peoples money, money they are 100% absolutely totally completely, undeniably entitled to get back the entire amount of - and then threatening anyone who complains or criticizes to hold onto their money more. There is very little to defend here.

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Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
The airsoftcanada facebook group is remaining neutral on the issue, as we have no reason still to believe this may be a scam, but rather just an unfortunate series of events and improperly executed fiscal plan. But the latter is really none of our business. And quite frankly, we dont want a bunch of counterproductive and ultimately futile shitposting all over the page.
Firstly, the threads I've seen get locked down across a number of groups seem to come from Pro-Host stances prior to locking it. The most recent one was literally locked after stating how people just need to wait because it takes time to sell off assets and how he "can't magically make money appear" - this is taking an actual stance on the issue. It's not neutral in any sense of the word. It's saying people shouldn't feel entitled to what is legally theirs.

That being said most of those threads become a complete shitshow so I understand why they do get locked, but I've seen even some tame ones get shut down.

Quote:
The only crime here is a bit of mismanagement.
Theres some mentally retarded people calling for class action lawsuit. But they're emotionally driven idiocy is made incredibly apparent by their lack of understanding of anything at all. If you sue someone who doesnt HAVE all your money for all your money, how are you going to get all your money? Answer is you wont.
But you'll waste a shitload in legal fees lol
It's a lot of mismanagement. A lot.

I don't know how he has is legal company set up, or even if it would cover his ass, but I'm going to expect if people wanted to go that route there is a chance the individual could be held personally responsible and liable for some, if not all, actions of the business. I'm no lawyer but most corporate liability stuff comes from shielding you from the actions of others - but if you make some really bad decisions you can still be targeted.

I wouldn't call these people mentally retarded. I'd call them naive, or a little uneducated about the legal system in Canada, but they seem to be exploring options on how to get back what is legally theirs.

Quote:
Anyway refunds are still going out, so no reason to call a national community crisis just yet.
At like, a really slow pace. I saw the screen shot he just posted of the refunds that went out two weeks ago. He's still refunding people who purchased tickets back in 2016. Anyone who bought any in 2017 I imagine hasn't even seen a dime yet... That is a lot of people.

And as far as mismanagement goes - he ended up posting your email and some others up. Not like it's the worst thing in the world but, I mean, I imagine most people would think to censor their customers email addresses, if not the names :/

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Old August 11th, 2017, 11:36   #17
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Originally Posted by W E W tastronk View Post
No, this doesn't fly. People aren't getting refunded out of courtesy, or out of good will to the community... People are getting refunded because it's their money. They have a right to their money back. This wasn't some sort of venture capitalism thing where people are buying shares to invest in this event - this is people buying a product or service they didn't receive. Any and all costs fall on the business (especially if said business protects the individual from liability). There is no jumping of the cart - they are using legal tools to get back what is legally theirs. There is no real issue here.

You also have a length of time with your credit card to file that chargeback, otherwise you won't be able to after that. I imagine there is also some sort of practical limit to any reports to the RCMP and what not.

As far as the landowner comment goes, he very much could attempt to sue for damages. Canada is a bit weird with punitive damages and you have to very clearly prove damages. Not just lost profit, but actual damages. Owning a bunch of assets you can sell or use at future events as your "damages" might not convince a judge in small claims court.
I agree completely. People are entitled to a 100% refund but it kind of looks like a blood from a stone situation. So you can trust the guy to work it out and pay you or you can do a chargeback and get blacklisted by his terms. But if you didn't trust the guy at that point why would you be signing up for future events.

It's super easy to Monday morning quarterback this stuff and I don't plan to do that. I think it would be great though if out of this thread there could be a best practices guideline for hosts planning a similar event. At some point some other event will get rained out or have a forest fire close the area or have some other act of god pull the plug.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 11:58   #18
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Agree 100% with Your last responses Delta. I'm not going to quote since there was so much. It comes down to honesty and integrity, people can defend the game host all they want and say its an unfortunate set of circumstances. Honestly though he shouldn't have spent the entry until the event was over and the product/service was delivered to the customer. Black listing someone for trying to recover their money also shows a total disregard for his customer base, in my opinion.

And that's the last of my opinions on the matter
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Old August 11th, 2017, 14:31   #19
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I bought ticket for his first event. It was cancelled and I got my money back quickly.

getting a lawyer won't help because the involved amount. The only way is to settle it at the small claims court. With this process, someone needs to file the case and serve him the paper. The court will then give you a court date. the process can drag on for a year.

As for the host, they should always treat it like a business. that means that you are going to either make or loose money. Manage the event details and finance carefully. Talk to an insurance broker to see if they can provide the event cancellation insurance.

I just feel that people are very naive in organising events and they just hope for the best.

I am hoping that things like that won't happen again.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 16:49   #20
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Theres lots of things each of us would have done differently.....hindsights 20/20
Hopefully this clusterfuck is a learning opportunity for the next brave large game host out west
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Old August 19th, 2017, 04:07   #21
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Originally Posted by W E W tastronk View Post
Firstly, the threads I've seen get locked down across a number of groups seem to come from Pro-Host stances prior to locking it. The most recent one was literally locked after stating how people just need to wait because it takes time to sell off assets and how he "can't magically make money appear" - this is taking an actual stance on the issue. It's not neutral in any sense of the word. It's saying people shouldn't feel entitled to what is legally theirs. :/
Im not too familiar with the subject matter, but one could argue that the stance is not that people shouldn't feel entitled to what is legally there's, but a realistic stance that patience is what is needed to resolve this situation for everyone, not just for oneself. Based on what I've read from this thread, the outrage and anger is justified. However, expressing that by bombarding the host, and trying push for a full an immediate refund for oneself, is counter productive and only screws overs others in the same situation.

Just because one is entitled to do something, doesn't mean they should do it.
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Old August 19th, 2017, 21:11   #22
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I've been following the story so far and am honestly almost more upset that its going to make things more difficult for me and the company I represent (FrontLine Milsim in Alberta) to get people to pre-pay and signup for bigger games in the future because of this extremely mismanaged bs.

All that said, I agree with most of the previous comments, and am watching carefully what the end results are going to be. It has definitely caused us to examine how we will be doing things going forward to insure everyone is properly protected.
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Old August 20th, 2017, 09:55   #23
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...is counter productive and only screws overs others in the same situation.

Just because one is entitled to do something, doesn't mean they should do it.
Yes but are you really obligated to consider every possible person or every possible outcome? The company wanted to run an event - it didn't happen, and the bulk of the money is sunk into assets. Why is it you who are screwing over other people? Why isn't it the company who is not taking out a business loan to front the cost of the assets until they can be liquidated, sold for profit or paid back by the profits of a future event? Or not having sunk so much of the profits into such things in the first place so they could issue partial refunds immediately to everybody.

There is a bit of a distinction between getting like 80% of your money back and the host "trying" to get the rest, and a person holding onto your entire money, saying you might one day get some of it back, or maybe all of it, but you can't complain, say bad things, or do anything or else Imma just hold onto it longer.

In the game of what people should do, it seems that isn't a winning move.

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I've been following the story so far and am honestly almost more upset that its going to make things more difficult for me and the company I represent (FrontLine Milsim in Alberta) to get people to pre-pay and signup for bigger games in the future because of this extremely mismanaged bs.

All that said, I agree with most of the previous comments, and am watching carefully what the end results are going to be. It has definitely caused us to examine how we will be doing things going forward to insure everyone is properly protected.
I think it's a pretty big shit show for everybody. I don't think it's going to impact the perception of our local players for me and the other Ontario hosts, mostly because nobody here even experienced it (or even knows about it) -- but as Nardac said when he chimed in: you gotta be aware nothing is 100% until it's done. Maybe don't commit so much of the profits from the game that is happening until it's done.

But for you people West of the center of the universe, I imagine the optics are going to change for you guys. Maybe you might need some transparency going on, or communications about what happens in the event of a canceled event, etc. I don't know, but I can imagine so many people are going to be skeptical to sign up so early for games now... But at the same time you really need those sign ups to lock in field relationships and keep costs low.

It sucks man. I feel your pain
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Old August 20th, 2017, 14:54   #24
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The real crying shame in this is the apparent loss of that location for future events.

Long before airsoft existed it was an "attractive nuisance" that drew local trespassers etc. pretty well constantly. It is by no means on the risk meter a safe location as it's covered in debris and other hazards.

All that taken as it is the field was a real world city that you could pretty well do as you please with including a huge school complex for full on indoor action. No phony pallet and cardboard walls.
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Old August 20th, 2017, 21:55   #25
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"Apparently", our friend, Mr. Chris Fuck-Face, is looking into buying the land to host events on. That's just through the grapevine, so who knows.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 10:21   #26
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"Apparently", our friend, Mr. Chris Fuck-Face, is looking into buying the land to host events on. That's just through the grapevine, so who knows.
There is specific language put in place on the land that requires anyone who buys it to stick to the original developers plans.i doubt that it would be possible to buy and use it as a airsoft event stage. It's meant to be developed as a self sustained town.

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Old August 21st, 2017, 11:58   #27
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"Apparently", our friend, Mr. Chris Fuck-Face, is looking into buying the land to host events on. That's just through the grapevine, so who knows.
If that dude could swing that parcel of land he's be doing a lot of different stuff with his life.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 20:28   #28
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"Apparently", our friend, Mr. Chris Fuck-Face, is looking into buying the land to host events on. That's just through the grapevine, so who knows.
Yeah, and I'm looking into the cure for cancer and living on the moon, but that's well into the realm of as unlikely as being hit by a falling sputnik satellite.

I don't see him buying it.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 23:44   #29
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Question: did the organizer have collateral each time they tried organizing the event?

Everything that has been mentioned thus so far has been good but I think someone said this already. They did/didn't account for overhead and sunk it all into assets?

So did this person have insurance/collateral? Kind of obvious that they didn't... For $150 and a large group like this... They were taking a huge risk knowing that if it flops he has nothing to fall back on.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 00:06   #30
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So did this person have insurance/collateral? Kind of obvious that they didn't... For $150 and a large group like this... They were taking a huge risk knowing that if it flops he has nothing to fall back on.
$150 was early bird... a good chunk of players paid the full pop $200... maybe $220... can't remember. But based off last year's experience, it wasn't remotely worth even $150. Might've passed as a $100 game but I feel even that was pushing it for what we got out of it by the end of everything. Basically a lack of planning for last year's game, and once again for this year's, which ended up flopping bad.
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