Is Canada ready for games like these?

[tygr701]

OP Pine Plains, Lion Claws, Berget in Sweden and even those game videos from Sweden posted on the forum are more intense than those in the video shown. I agree with what Kokanee and Gunk said 100%. Rhino and Deadfall were intense. There is a demand for this type of game but the majority of the players aren't up for training and playing style unfortunately. Those who do would seem to be in the minority.

[skydiver]

website for the guys that run the games

http://www.tier1militarysimulation.c...el/about-us-2/

[Brian McIlmoyle]

In answer to your question..

Generally very few people are ready to do games like this.

You can have the kit
you can have the guns

but if you lack the will it just won't happen.

So the limitation is certainly not the places or people willing to run games like this.. it is the people willing to play games like this.

Less than one in 20 airsofters are capable , ready or able to participate regardless of what they may say.

I have had far too many 24 hour operations go south due to player attrition .. almost to the point where I'm soured on even running the games.

Players want everything handed to them, no one wants to figure things out, and solve problems, and if the weather is too hot, too cold, to wet, too many bugs, people quit or don't show.

Many many people are enamored of the idea of "milsim" very few are even approaching the ability to actually do it.

[Blackthorne]

Kokanee and Brian have hit the main points, all 100% valid.

Most folks THINK they are up to a real challenge, but when faced with little sleep and a warm car are often not up to the task. That doesn't invalidate them as players, it just means that the hardcore guys get pissed off when they look around and 75% of the people they have been tasked with finding are not even on the field.

I have been to games in the UK, and am going to Berget this year in Sweden. From what I have seen, and from how I have been told to prep, they are MILES ahead of what we do in Canada. Airsoft is still in it's infancy here in Canuk Land.

There is MilSim here, but I find it doesn't cater to the entire roster (e.g MilSim and skirmishers) and that's why they are sometimes less than successful.


The only solution I can see, and that Scarecrow and I have talked about over and over is a hybridized game that "has something for everyone". Long drawn out detail oriented missions for the MilSim guys who like snatch and grabs at 0300 in the rain, and scenarios that generate allot of regular trigger time and firefights for the skirmishers. Creating a story line and a plan that can be flexible enough to survive 12-24 or 36 hours and still keep it interesting is EXTREMELY difficult, as is executing it. The requirement for support staff goes way up, and so does cost. This is why the bigger games in the US are $150-$250 a head.

These types of scenarios are a regular occurrence in the UK and I am planning my trip to Berget as much for fun as to profile how they do things so I can bring it back. Scarecrow and I are in talks with Blacksheep Productions to try and do something big up here, as well as talking with John Lu for the same reasons. They have experience and have come up with some interesting ways of overcoming the pitfalls of big games (e.g. forced team structures and FRAGO orders for each team at random intervals, etc etc)


So the question really isn't are we ready as airsofters, it's "Are the hosts ready for the challenge?".

..

[Conker]

There are also people relatively far (as me in Quebec city, but also a couple friends between here and Montreal) that would be ready to drive to a game in the Toronto area, but are reluctant due to past games that promised a lot... without delivering. It was just a big, long skirmish, expensive with nice vehicles. While they make these games cool, having props don't magically make them milsims.

That being said, I'm not pretending I can kick ass for a continuous 36 hours as I never had the chance to challenge myself, but I'm hoping that will happen at some point...



As for Berget, reading the official forums I've heard quite a lot of negative, mainly that having it as a for-profit organization, they try to gather to as much players as possible which brings quality low with a lot of cheating, and a very pre-scripted game where main points are barely influenced by objective completion. But then again I wasn't there, this is what I read...

[Danke]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne

The only solution I can see, and that Scarecrow and I have talked about over and over is a hybridized game that "has something for everyone". Long drawn out detail oriented missions for the MilSim guys who like snatch and grabs at 0300 in the rain, and scenarios that generate allot of regular trigger time and firefights for the skirmishers. Creating a story line and a plan that can be flexible enough to survive 12-24 or 36 hours and still keep it interesting is EXTREMELY difficult, as is executing it. The requirement for support staff goes way up, and so does cost. This is why the bigger games in the US are $150-$250 a head.


So the question really isn't are we ready as airsofters, it's "Are the hosts ready for the challenge?".

..

The folks out here in Penticton would run events that were termed "Filmsim", a scripted one or two day event that roles for both the hardcore types and the walk ons.

Game control was always always a concern. There were times with only one or tow admins on the field and that led to issues.

Also some players balked at the script. You'd have the opposition pinned down and being annihilated and you'd have to walk away and give up all your ground because it was 15:00 and time for something to happen. Or as Brian noted they wouldn't dress in their side's uniform and cause confusion, either by being hosed down by their own team or not being shot by the opposition.

When there was good control it was a ton of fun. When control broke down or players bent rules then it wasn't that good.

[Karma_]

I was at Irene this year, Fort Ord last year. Those games were not milsim's. They have a 2-3 hour scenario then a 1-2 hour lunch/dinner break. It's sad when they have these incredible venues and the game is lacking. It isn't about numbers.

We had a game here by Calgary last summer that was 17 hours. It started at 10pm and everyone was trucked into the field with one team going in an hour before. Not having easy access to vehicles kept the players engaged and there was only 1 who rage quit. It was the best game I've ever played even though the field wasn't anything too special. We didn't have a lot of people but we the right guys.

It's better to have 40 dependable/reliable guys than 300.

[Karma_]

Originally Posted by Danke

The folks out here in Penticton would run events that were termed "Filmsim", a scripted one or two day event that roles for both the hardcore types and the walk ons.

Game control was always always a concern. There were times with only one or tow admins on the field and that led to issues.

Also some players balked at the script. You'd have the opposition pinned down and being annihilated and you'd have to walk away and give up all your ground because it was 15:00 and time for something to happen. Or as Brian noted they wouldn't dress in their side's uniform and cause confusion, either by being hosed down by their own team or not being shot by the opposition.

When there was good control it was a ton of fun. When control broke down or players bent rules then it wasn't that good.

I went to a couple of these games with the big Calgary groups and the first year was a good time. This past one had too many kids that weren't committed to the game and only one admin trying to keep it all together. It's frustrating to travel so far only to play a "milsim" where others will walk on and off the field whenever they please or when they get bored.

[Gato]

Big games rule, anyone complaining just doesn't need to come play. I for one say more big games in Ontario damnit

[Danke]

Originally Posted by Karma_

I went to a couple of these games with the big Calgary groups and the first year was a good time. This past one had too many kids that weren't committed to the game and only one admin trying to keep it all together. It's frustrating to travel so far only to play a "milsim" where others will walk on and off the field whenever they please or when they get bored.

Tour of Duty spring 2010, and Imperial Intent Spring 2011 right?

[dutch13]

I've done quite a few 24 hour ops. Overnight is what kills most players. Can't see anything without nightvision so everyone becomes disheartens and sleeps.

[Brayden]

I think its important to keep in mind while criticizing Canada that we are newer to airsoft milsims, I think because of the very focused community that we could have some big games and people will start to realize what they need to bring and what they need to do in these big games.

For me its not about being bored, that doesn't make me dislike what I am doing- its about the experience, the milsim experience and the moral. If I could criticize the milsims ive been to it would be about the amount of game admins being too low/unorganized and people who drop out- which ruins the milsim.

I like the twists, it makes it exciting and less scripted/pretend.
I like when people don't call their hits, it makes me want to try harder and maneuver better, although i'll probably whine about it to be fair. Its almost as if they have some sort of body armor like a plate carrier in a way.
I like when the other team uses too much energy on your defenses and needs a nap at 03:00 when you can pop by easier.
I like to use military terms although I am still learning, I appreciate when people mention how I could say things or do things as long as it makes sense. Sometimes I don't agree with tactics that ex military tell me work but I can see how it makes sense in some ways however it is airsoft so you have to find a medium between. Its a learning experience, which is good because its interesting. Now if your not open to learn, you are whining about the other team bringing down moral and your not taking it seriously well then your gonna have a bad experience and your not going to help your team.
The guys I play with usually stay up and on the field, we take it seriously and try to look out for each other and its great but some people do not have the community and so maybe it should be the players responsibility to help them out and take them in.

game hosts, you have to do a lot and its all appreciated. I do not know how much you do nor every aspect but I do know you get a lot of criticism. Here is more. Communications cannot be handled by 1 individual, you should make sure there is 3 operators at least. There should be more objectives than possible to complete, they don't have to be all known but I am pretty sure the point of milsim games is for objectives to be completed, we are not skirmishing after all. More variety of possible situations that we do not know of, screw the people who can't handle a surprise. Its a game, we don't actually die so there should be no hard feelings as long as it doesn't violate rules(such as no uniform changes, no physical harm etc). Put some game control in the field for a bit, let them have some fun and collect info on problems that are happening so they can address it. keep up the use of props, pyro, mines, hidden ammo caches, free smoke nades. Hell, how cool would it be if no one knew about a gun runner and so you kill them and steal whats in the truck they have and perhaps they have a recent map of enemy+friendly forces + grenades/smoke. You know put all that confusion in there, if no 1 kill the driver have them sell the guns to mercenaries who only attack once then die. Easy way for game control to screw around and drop some ammo + get some info o how the game is running are the teams fair to keep it interesting etc.

So many (perhaps childish)ideas go through my head on what would be cool and I think games need more game control staff to produce all these things. As well communications need to be better and you cannot have mistakes, I don't know how many times communications intel from game control has been wrong often people just start working together radioing each team and ignoring it because the info is old/misinformed by game control.

As for players, you need to make sure your working with everyone and your team. You need to bring the gear you need, food a blanket proper clothing etc. Most of the time we are fortunate to have a HQ and then you don't need to lug all that stuff around so how hard is it to come prepared. If your not sure what to bring private message someone who is been to some milsims- we all want to help our teammates!

Communications should give team commanders tasks toi give to groups, commanders during games are not often fully aware of the situations going on and I think they would benefit from having more contact from game control so they can task people more often. People getting bored shouldn't really happen, if your not under attack commanders should lighten defenses and send out some nearby scouts perhaps often they are busy and forget because they are so focused on the main objective and the people surrounding them so that's difficult to address but I think its needs to be.


Kind of late and i'm tired, not sure if I even covered everything and not sure if I want to post this text wall but I put some effort into typing it. Feel free to sum it up or agree/disagree on any points to improve my thinking.

Bottom line, I think Canada will have some great Milsims 2011, lookign forward to it and thanks to all the hosts, players and venues.

[Kimbo]

It takes alot of time to be an effective milsim player. That's probably what kills it the most. People don't have the time to put in or the inclination to spend the time and money that they need to be effective for extended games, perhaps under less than ideal conditions.

What we as game organizers need to do is to blend milsim and skirmish games together so that skirmish players are used as regular troops and the milsim dudes are used as spec ops. Maybe the milsimers start their ops 8 hours earlier in the middle of the night and carry on the detailed missions in paralell with the skirmish players during the day. The skirmishers can treat their completed objectives as the end of their game where they can return to base to refit, rearm, have a drinkie, poop, whatever while the milsimers are charged with staying in field completing their objectives or chilling at an FOB all the while maintaining game continuity. They would operate much the same as they do in the real world. It would be a good way for skirmishers to play within a milsim, but not have to jump in neck deep.

[delendam_pandion]

Berget is just a several day skirmish fest. I would not call it a milsim, at least not by swedish standards. :]

Milsim from my point of view is when you do everything to fulfill orders that are given to you, no matter what...

For example:

Team OTI played three days with no water, food, nicotine or caffeine from the start. (PP8)


Team November India goes recon. (rePP)
November India - rePandion - YouTube

Some mixed ingame material from one of my games (PP8).
http://www.airsoftsverige.com/V6/vie...87875&start=20

[Karma_]

Originally Posted by Danke

Tour of Duty spring 2010, and Imperial Intent Spring 2011 right?

Those were the ones.