Should CO2 SMG/handguns be allowed in games ?

[Swattiger]

I have recently joined a game where some of the players used CO2 handguns which shoot over 400FPS.

As handguns/SMGs (e.g. the mini UZI) are usually for much shorter distance, and CO2 gives out much larger power than green gas/propane, just wonder if these guns should be allowed in game or not? We have pretty clear rules about AEGs and Sniper Rifle FPS, but not one for handguns or SMGs.

Personally I don't own any CO2 guns as I think they are too powerful and may caused serious harm to other players.

I may be wrong and any enlightenment will be much appreciated

[Huron]

FPS/joule limits are FPS/joule limits... If the field/game has them then why on earth should these handguns or SMGs be exempt? Sounds like a case of stupid to me. If the power of the gun can't be lowered below the accepted limit then the gun shouldn't be allowed into play. Seems pretty simple...

If there are high limits because of longer ranges, usually players are expected to carry a secondary weapon or sidearm that doesn't shoot as hot for close quarters. I personally wouldn't run a 360fps rifle and tune my pistol to 450. Just doesn't make any sense, and is rather irresponsible. Unless they plan to use their sidearm as a DMR and their rifle as a pistol, which sounds like another problem unto itself lol.

[skalnok]

I personally believe they should be treated as outdoor guns because they fire at the same velocity as most out door guns.

Use the same limitations and common sense as if you were using a full sized outdoor rifle.

As long as they aren't used in cqb as they would be much over the 350 fps limit used in most places.

[Drake]

It's like anything else, gas guns (propane, co2 or otherwise) need to respect the field limits. It's not like AEGs or spring -powered BAs can't shoot above 400 fps, too.

Co2 doesn't necessarily shoot hotter than propane: if I take my WE M4 mags as an example, in side by side conditions, the propane ones usually shoot hotter in most conditions (the interior of the mag is entirely different as well).

So the question is, would you let a hot AEG play? Or a hot GBBR? Or would you oblige the player to install a weaker spring or NPAS, etc ("downgrade or go home")?

If the handguns/SMGs don't conform to whatever rules you have for FPS, then why are you accepting them? And if you don't have rules then you probably should.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

FPS limits are not different for pistols or SMGs vs rifles

if it shoots over the limit it should not be used if it shoots under the limit it's fine

the FPS limit at field games I host is 450 all weapons .. so these guns would be fine to use.

[Ricochet]

Plus 1. All guns "must" follow, and "fall under" field rules. The propellant isn't important, it's all FPS/joules. If the gun can't be brought under then it "cannot" be used. All SMGs, pistols, LMGs, and others (excluding BA) generally fall under the same rules as an assault primary; indoor FPS or outdoor.

[m102404]

Aside from what's already been said...be aware and bring it up to the host well before if there's game conditions specifically related to pistols.

i.e. If there a rule such as pistols only in buildings. I think the LZ used to be like that.

If in question...put that question to the host. Final say is up to them.

The spirit behind any rule/limit/etc. is to establish a upper safety level. It's never been about establishing a level playing field.

However...I think that pistols have mostly been dismissed from being listed in limits since they historically were shooting 300fps +/- just a little and so not a safety concern specifically.

[lt_poncho]

Originally Posted by m102404

However...I think that pistols have mostly been dismissed from being listed in limits since they historically were shooting 300fps +/- just a little and so not a safety concern specifically.

Add to that the commonly understood expectation has been that pistols were used when entering close quarters/built up areas where engagements were often less than 25ft. - this was a safety expectation. An added benefit of this was that it cut down on rage quits.

Not too sure players are (intentionally) using pistols to engage targets from 100ft.; pretty sure players don't want to be digging out BB embedded in their skin.

Where's the value of having a pistol that shoots 450? Trying to understand the benefit.

[Swattiger]

Originally Posted by lt_poncho

Add to that the commonly understood expectation has been that pistols were used when entering close quarters/built up areas where engagements were often less than 25ft. - this was a safety expectation. An added benefit of this was that it cut down on rage quits.

Not too sure players are (intentionally) using pistols to engage targets from 100ft.; pretty sure players don't want to be digging out BB embedded in their skin.

Where's the value of having a pistol that shoots 450? Trying to understand the benefit.

Yeah. That's my question, pistols are mostly used in close distance. Would it be better if we just use the normal gas pistols to avoid some unnecessary harm to others?

[lt_poncho]

Just trying to tag my mates, not blow them away...

[Cliffradical]

Urgh. This is another one of those "Fine if..." situations.
If the people are of good character and know what they're doing, then sure.
The problem lies in the 'average player' not really understanding the differences in power between guns, and the effects on human skin. Many people, even otherwise sensible ones, look at an airsoft pistol, subgun, AR, LMG side-by-side and directly correlate their power and accuracy to videogames.
Then there is the problem with power trippers who think that power directly equates to better.
Unfortunately we can not rely on people to be trustworthy in their knowledge or intent, so it falls upon the organizer to check and regulate everything being brought onto the field.

I personally believe that any Co2 handgun should be subject to chrono check, simply because there is so much variance between manufacturers, between guns, and even between mags in some guns (pistols which can accept both Co2 and Propane mags will chrono differently on each propellant type).
Some Co2 guns run at ~300fps (TF-11) while others run at ~470-500fps (every Dan Wesson revolver). It has to be case-by-case and people have to realize that ~350fps is still absolutely outdoor viable.

I'm going to use this space while I'm here to suggest that every game organizer institutes an outright ban on Dan Wesson revolvers unless the user is known to be reasonable and is 'sniping' with them. There is no significant drop in fps when moving to a higher weight bb, and the lowest I have seen them chrono is 460fps, even on the 4". This means that these guns can operate well over 2 joules.
If the gun has been modified to shoot under 400, be sure to test at least 10 shots. If 6 shots run 360, 2 run 350, and 2 run 460 it's still a 460fps gun.

[MultipleParadox]

With all respect to the OP, I don't even understand why the question is asked.

To me, it's always been clear; 400fps limit is 400fps limit, no matter what shoots it. Why would there be any kind of distinction between rifle, smg, pistol, aeg or propane or CO2?

[Swattiger]

Originally Posted by MultipleParadox

With all respect to the OP, I don't even understand why the question is asked.

To me, it's always been clear; 400fps limit is 400fps limit, no matter what shoots it. Why would there be any kind of distinction between rifle, smg, pistol, aeg or propane or CO2?

Most airsoft rifles are used from a longer distance, and pistols are mostly used in CQB and a much shorter distance.

So same power, but shorter distance=more damage=more dangerous. That's why most of the indoor games have limited the FPS to a much lower one.

[Drake]

So what you're really asking is "should there be a separate FPS limit for sidearms/close range weapons." And that's really up to you/your organizers.

We've had that on some [outdoor] fields that had structures and stuff that would present CQB-like conditions. If you're going to engage in those areas, or with X ft of someone, you need to use the lower power secondary weapon. Not unlike snipers (those that underwent the certification bit, anyway) are held to doing.

[MultipleParadox]

Originally Posted by Swattiger

Most airsoft rifles are used from a longer distance, and pistols are mostly used in CQB and a much shorter distance.

So same power, but shorter distance=more damage=more dangerous. That's why most of the indoor games have limited the FPS to a much lower one.

What I meant is, there's no reason why a pistol should be allowed to shoot more than an AEG.

As for "should it be allowed to shoot as strong as an AEG or should it be considered CQB and respect CQB FPS rules?" (limit them to 350fps because used at closer range usually) - I'd say it's up to the organizer.

A player with no sidearm will use his AEG or freeze the opfor in due circumstances, the same would/should apply for a pistol I guess, as long as it's not over the field limit for AEGs.

But yes, in general it'd be better and simpler for anyone to limit pistols to 350fps as per the CQB "rule", but I think that at an outdoor field the pistol should be allowed as long as under the 400fps limit

My 2c