What is your true definition of "Milsim"

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Aswayze

Sheesh…. 5 pages…. I need to lighten the hell up…

Thanks for this.. that is all really really good stuff.

[FirestormX]

Originally Posted by Aswayze

Sheesh…. 5 pages…. I need to lighten the hell up…

I disagree. I'm finding these posts really informative and interesting.

[Grudge]

Originally Posted by Aswayze

Sheesh…. 5 pages…. I need to lighten the hell up…

You need to write a book on this: Airsoft , Milsim style.

I'd buy it.

I'm finding that the older I get the more this appeals to me. Unfortunately medical issues keep me from attending alot of extended duration games.


When I first started I loved the meat grinder games. Run in shoot, get hit, run out, respawn, repeat.

Now not so much. I like using my head more than my feet.

I'm starting to find more enjoyment in planning various skrims and OPs, than playing in alot of games. And when I play in games, I am very selective in which ones I go to, since I know my limitations.

I'm looking forward to more discussion!

[pusangani]

Milsim isn't an abandoned town or a rule set or a shiny humvee or apc. It's in you and me! It's the spirit of believing that you can die from bb's, it's the feeling you get when your CO gives you a couple hours sleep before going back on patrol. It's that feeling of pride you feel as you watch those around you wuss out and head for the carpark, that's Milsim and it is in all of us

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by pusangani

Milsim isn't an abandoned town or a rule set or a shiny humvee or apc. It's in you and me! It's the spirit of believing that you can die from bb's, it's the feeling you get when your CO gives you a couple hours sleep before going back on patrol. It's that feeling of pride you feel as you watch those around you wuss out and head for the carpark, that's Milsim and it is in all of us

YAY! Everyone gets a blue ribbon!

[Aswayze]

@ Brian, Firestorm, and Grudge I appreciate the comments. I am not planning a book, just have enough time to actually sit at the desk and write a bit right now. It’s that sort of quiet around here at work that you only get when you are ticking away the days till your job is over.



Ahh… So quiet in the engine room now…

Grudge said: “I'm finding that the older I get the more this appeals to me. Unfortunately medical issues keep me from attending a lot of extended duration games.”

There are plenty of us who are not the spring chickens we used to be, that does not preclude being able to do milsim games, it just means that some effort has to be placed to find the just right spot to fit in. As I mentioned, the biggest obstacle anyone who is trying to run a good milsim style event has to overcome is leadership. If you don’t have what it takes to grind it out in the trenches figure out where you can go to find the challenge without having to use up all your real life “hit points”. A well run milsim needs effective guys on the sidelines keeping things moving. Last spring at East Wind for instance there were three of us in HQ who were still recovering from broken legs. If you learn useful skills, there is always a place for you helping out, providing guidance, working with guys on mission planning, dealing with signals or working with the command staff to help put together the big picture so things can run successfully. The more depth you add to a milsim, the more back line guys you end up needing to make it happen. Event have vehicles? They need drivers? Have supplies that need to be dealt with? That means an S4 to manage them. Have serious commo? That means you need a signals guy. Have a dedicated medevac vehicle that means you need a medic to run it. The list goes on.

Don’t give up your hobbies just because of health, just morph it into what you can do and keep doing that the absolutely best that you can.

Pusnagi said: “that's Milsim and it is in all of us”

Pretty much but I will specify that what really matters is if we are being honest with ourselves about what exactly we want from an event and bring the right frame of mind with us in our kit bag. Basically, it’s there if we want it to be there otherwise we just end up with everyone whining.

[Aper]

The definition on MILSIM has never been, and will never be accurately defined.

Personnally, MILSIM has always been how much effort, dedication and devotion a player / team puts into the game to fully live the immersion.

And then of course, you have the fluffy-candied things that comes with it; Props, Chain Of Command, Vehicles, Strict gear rules, Mission Complexity, ect.

This MILSIM debate was there when I first joined airsoft in 2003, and it's still being debated 10 years later ... I've turned that page and carried on with my beliefs.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Aper

This MILSIM debate was there when I first joined airsoft in 2003, and it's still being debated 10 years later ... I've turned that page and carried on with my beliefs.

Gish,

now you gone and done it...

cracked open ASC debate number 21-b

What is Milsim..

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Gish,

now you gone and done it...

cracked open ASC debate number 21-b

What is Milsim..

Are you simulating the military? If not, then it isn't military simulation. I guess the best we can all hope for is an airsoft game with maximized elements of military simulation within. Now everyone can argue over how "their" game is more milsim than the next guys. Yay, I'm helping!

[Danke]

To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.

Ask anyone who's in.

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by Danke

To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.

And you definitely don't want a poorly planned milsim game that use "this is what the military are like" as an excuse.

[Janus]

It's not really what the military is like unless you're getting the players to DAG every time they respawn.

[danhay]

I think a few major points have been missed here.

Airsoft is a game. It is not anything like military service. Those wanting a true military experience should sign up. End of story.

The point of a game is to have fun. This means accommodating people of widely different experience and skill levels. That fat kid in the multicam cap is the future of the sport. New players must be encouraged and brought into the sport instead of being alienated and made to feel inadequate simply because they don't meet some elitist standard of conduct. Without new blood, this sport will die.

Heck, the fact that the fat kid in the multicam cap has been singled out and become the subject of scorn and ridicule is itself an indication of a very broken attitude. Every member of this forum was once that fat kid in the multicam cap; we all had to start at the beginning.

I should mention that I have noted more than a few so called 'elite' players who conduct themselves in extremely unsportsmanlike ways. Refusing to call hits from that fat kid in the multicam cap because one has been airsofting for N years and feels themselves to be special is beyond the pale. Overly aggressive behavior towards new players will only ensure that the 'elite' players become a small, lonely and likely bitter group that nobody else wants to associate with. If that's your goal, fill your boots.

When hosting a large game/milsim/op/whatever, it is truly a challenge to ensure that one provides a safe and rewarding experience for all participants, regardless of skill level. The goal of a game organizer should be to ensure that all players are challenged but yet have an opportunity to have fun and feel as though they have received good entertainment value for their money. After all, people participate in this money hemorrhaging sport because they want too, and the second it ceases being enjoyable they will move on. The best way to ensure that people attend an event is to listen to what they want and then to work hard to strike a balance between the requirement of the elite and the new players and everyone in between. It is absolutely critical that one parks their ego and strives to keep listening, and to realize that laurels are something to be built on, not rest on.

If one wishes to host a 'true milsim' event with very restrictive rules and player skill level limitations then feel free to do so. However, don't complain about your sparsely attended milsim while denigrating the event which drew 300+ people that you felt did not live up to your standards. That 300+ person event had a lot of turnout because people had fun and they will support such events in the future because they wish to continue having fun.

[Ricochet]

I see your point, but things are not so A and B. The scale in which you measure a player is not from elitist to fat kid and back. There are several different tangents to style of play, and several different dynamics you could use to rate a player. If Brian wishes to host a World War II event, and I wish to hold a modern military style event, then that is simply what they are. An elitist attitude would be looking down at said event because it isn't your style, but it is in no way elitist to expect all attendees to show up appropriately. Nobody is responsible for catering to all demographics, because that would be impossible, and foolish. General demographic games that are simply shoot and scoot, can be very fun, but I have attended 300 player plus games that were near to a complete shit storm. Amount of players can make a great dynamic to a game, but can just as easily ruin it.

Discluding someone from an event is elitist, unless there is a valid reason i.e. age, attitude, safety, etc. The fat kid is allowed to attend a WWII event, as long as he is there prepared for such an event. I take players on to my team with low natural skill, knowing full well that they will get better with time given the opportunity. However, this brings up a very good point; if a group of players is set up well will skill, team work, equipment, etc, then some kid with a clearsoft gun and little experience will not likely have fun with them, and on the opposite, the other group has no challenge, so they'll be disappointed. You "can" field them all together, but it may end in disaster. Several types of game styles simply do not mix on any level whatsoever, and there is nothing anyone can do about that.

Elitist attitude is simply thinking that you're superior in some way, and looking down at others, it is not being superior, and using your gifts. If that was not the case, every player would have to run the exact same gear with the exact same capabilities, and anyone who showed above average skill would have an arm tied behind their backs, while below average would be given cocaine to compensate. Luckily, our species figured out how stupid that is, and now it doesn't apply to anything, especially something like airsoft.

Whining because something doesn't cater to you, means you are a part of a small, selfish demographic of people that are too lazy to start something yourself, or to see what the local scene is into, and finding a way to fit in. If you ran a team, and everyone on it put their heart and soul into their gear, their skill, and thei team work, and actively looked for challenging events that was more inline with their style, that doesn't make them elitist. But when someone joins up, and suggests you run around in pink leotards with rubber swords, you wouldn't consider it. You'd probably tell them to head on down the road to find something more their speed. That is the right thing to do, not elitist, not even a little.

Airsoft can be whatever you want it to be, and that's just fine, but don't bring expectations into someone else's house, and the cry when you don't get your way. So many people who dump their all their energy, money, and skill into their gear, or their events get called elitist for no reason. Name on sport or game where there is not a minimum safety and sporting gear to play. Guess what happens if you want to play hockey, but you can't afford skates or a helmet? I'll bet you can figure out the answer without me telling you, but it involves you not playing hockey. Luckily, that's where field hockey, or ball hockey comes into play. Once those different sports are established however, don't expect them to mix on the same field; they are just too different.

If you do attend an "open" event, and some kid with a POS Walmart gun manages to shoot you in all your fancy gear, and you don't call it, then you are an unsportsmanlike, elitist, turd.

[MADDOG]

Originally Posted by Danke

To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.

Ask anyone who's in.

Quoted for truth, playing airsoft got you out of the "routine" and doctrine. It gets repetitive after too many years and it is nice to sometimes just shoot instead of living the life. But individuals with that experience and perception are in the minority. You quickly realize how training, understood doctrine, SOP's and "groupthink" go out the window when you are actually under effective fire. Any true CQB simulation will show you this, when the defenders are actually prepared and not under a surprise raid or attack. Without the element of surprise you are dead in the door in most scenarios.

I always remind myself in every game that airsoft survivability is nothing like the real world and tactics used in airsoft do not necessarily translate to real world "milsim". Sometimes it is the suspension of belief that can lead to the best entertainment and experience, go with the flow of the game as it is designed.

Airsoft "milsim" is the same as the rest of life, you get out of it what you invest in it.