The Amazing Race Gun Thread

[m102404]

Slide mount docter vs. frame mount whatever (c-more/aimpoint/docter/micro/etc..)

A slide mounted docter seems easier (at first) to pick up for a sight picture since the optic is in about the same place as where your rear iron sight was. Bring your pistol up to sight...and there's the optic.

A frame mounted optic rides quite a bit higher. Until you get used to it...when you bring the pistol up to sight you've got to stop your arm movement lower/sooner that you would with iron sights. It's a bit weird at first to be "looking high over your gun"...because it doesn't feel natural/normal.

Both take some getting used to.

The Frame mounted optic stays "fixed" relative to your point of contact with the pistol (your hands)...so it doesn't "move around"...it's just there. Point your hands and the optic is still in the same relative position above them. So...easier to acquire the red dot.

The slide mounted optic moves back and forth (relative to your eye and hands) with every shot. Personally, I find it disconcerting to pick up the sight/dot for every shot.

Which is more accurate? From a technical standpoint...the slide mount is more accurate.

Between the inner barrel and the sights, there are a number of "lockup" points of contact. How consistently these points come to rest AFTER a shot determines how CONSISTENT a pistol is in grouping shots together (not considering gas and projectile variables).
1. Inner barre/chamber unit to outer barrel (doesn't exist for real steel)
2. Outer barrel to slide

With iron sights...they are "fixed" to the slide. Same to with a slide mounted optic (as long as the base to slide and sight to base lockup is tight).

With a frame mounted sight...there is an additional lockup point.
3. How consistently the slide (which holds the outer barrel, which holds the inner barrel) mates up with the frame and how consistently it comes to the same point of rest after each shot.
* note: Assuming base to frame and optic to base lockup tight and firm

Does it matter on a practical sense...not really, unless you're splitting pretty fine hairs. If you're AS pistol is so sloppy so as to introduce significant scattering of shots with a frame mounted optic...then it's likely that it's a scatter gun to begin with and a slide mounted optic won't help much anyways.

RDS are easier/faster to shoot with vs. iron sights. But one over the other won't make your pistol more consistent/accurate (you might be able to more easily aim accurately).

With AS go with whatever works for you.

[RacingManiac]

At anyrate, which ever style of RDS you use needs a ton of practice to build your index and draw for it. The main benefit of the RDS still exist for both in that it takes the sight alignment out so its shooting where the dot is at. You'll get appreciable benefit from having one(primarily for competition style shooting, the bulk and fear of having it shotout might prevent you from using it as a scrim piece.

I want to add one thing on Tys's finishing statement though, AS being gas powered, heavier moving parts might be detrimental for the performance of the gun....

[m102404]

Ok, enough about optics....let's talk about:

Stiffness of main hammer springs re. weight of hammers re. mass of knockers re. mag valves.

Balancing power vs. follow up shot split times...what's the best setup and why?

[RacingManiac]

Whatever looks cooler...lol

BTW what do you run for your hammer spring? I think(don't remember) I am running a 9Ball right now + 1 BB spacer.

[ILLusion]

I use KM high flow valves and only recommend them. I've used so many different ones, tested them all and the KM high flows came out with the best balance of highest and most consistent velocities. Other valves may have an extremely high first 3 shots, but the rest of the shots dropped lower and lower due to excessive output. Some valves just plain didn't work at all. Nine Ball ones come to mine... they're garbage.

I use Guarder hammer springs in most of my setups.

Mass of knockers hasn't seemed to have been any issue, as long as it's lubed well and moves freely when the hammer strikes it. I only recommend steel knockers anyways, because aluminum is too soft and prone to wear when taking the brunt of a steel hammer with the full weight of a 150% hammer spring behind it smashing it against a steel high flow valve under the pressure of propane.

For fast follow up shots (double tap), a smooth, short and light pulling trigger helps extremely. Trigger work like this includes the trigger, the stirrup, the sear, and the hammer. I think my current setup is a bit precarious though, as Tys has even mentioned that the hammer feels "creepy". I don't think I could tune the pull to be any lighter between the sear and hammer.

Combined with a load of shock buffers, my current setup is extremely fast. Even Lanny "Lightning" Nguyen has approached me after a match and asked me how he can make his setup doubletap that fast.

[Thenooblord]

Originally Posted by RacingManiac

Whatever looks cooler...lol

BTW what do you run for your hammer spring? I think(don't remember) I am running a 9Ball right now + 1 BB spacer.

aww damn I thought I was all clever and shit...

[pusangani]

lol "Lightning" Nguyen

[m102404]

I run a stock TM hammer spring. Steel sear/hammer (I adjusted the engagement angles to allow a crisp break...creepy letoffs bug me). Stock knocker I think...and modify valves ('cause I never seem to have the money at hand to switch all my mags over to KMs)

The uber lightweight plastic BBU is freakishly light. From that alone the slide speed is phenomenal (or at least faster than I can pull the trigger).

So far hitting Hi-flows with the power of a stock spring hasn't been an issue in the current setup...but I think it might be more consistent with a 150% spring when temperatures rise. The first shot off a fully gased mag is not the best. 2nd shot onwards is much more consistent.

***edit***

Originally Posted by Thenooblord

aww damn I thought I was all clever and shit...

Well...you thought half right....

(just kidding around....too good to pass up )

[StrikeFreedom]

My ASS hammer/sear set, disconnector set and leaf spring just arrived. Did you guys make any modification to them? Because after I assembled everything the trigger pull actually got tighter. I notice that the middle leaf isn't even touching the sear when it's cocked. So there's too much friction between sear and hammer?

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by m102404

The first shot off a fully gased mag is not the best. 2nd shot onwards is much more consistent.

This is a good telltale sign that your hammer spring isn't strong enough. If you're feeling cheap, you can drop a BB in to the bottom the MSH to preload the hammer spring.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by StrikeFreedom

My ASS hammer/sear set, disconnector set and leaf spring just arrived. Did you guys make any modification to them? Because after I assembled everything the trigger pull actually got tighter. I notice that the middle leaf isn't even touching the sear when it's cocked. So there's too much friction between sear and hammer?

Sometimes modification is required. The manufacturing of the hooks isn't always consistent, because it's so small and sharp. It's done via CNC wire cut EDM, and depending on the wear on the tool, it may not cut it to spec.

A fine file can take the edge off, followed up with an emery cloth to polish it to an ultra smooth finish can make for a very smooth and light pull. Trigger pull length can also be adjusted here by shortening the hooks.

Warning: DO NOT modify the hooks if you don't know what you're doing. If you are careless and create a negative angle, you can potentially create an unsafe weapon that is capable of AD's (Accidental Discharges.)

The AS light weight sear spring is designed to be modified by bending. The sear prong should always be contacting the sear.

[m102404]

A fine knife honing stone works well too.

Go slow, keep the existing angles/profile...just clean up the contact surfaces betwen the sear and hammer first to remove the "gritty-ness" of the trigger pull. Often just doing that will "lighten" the perceived pull of a trigger significantly...and poses little risk.

If you have not adjusted positive and negative engagement angles before...to NOT try them for the first time on your new sear and hammer. Try it out on a some stock sears and hammers first. (although taking the chromed coating off the stock parts will expose the softer metal underneath...it'll hold up in use long enough to practice and experiment).

Even with steel parts, I wouldn't try to shorten any of the sear/hammer hooks until there was some wear on them. Then you can see the engagement surfaces clearly and how much you can take off (if any).

Polish the sear surfaces? Great to do right off the bat. But I'd wait until after some use before doing any of the other stuff.

[juicy]

Yup, that makes sense - not just to ILLusion, but from all the information that's been spoon fed to me in this thread. Hehe, chances are that I'll end up building another Hi-Capa at some point in the future just so that I can try out a frame-mounted optic.

Originally Posted by ILLusion

...You just pick one and stick with it. It's an emotional decision, generally... not much logic behind it, unless you're such an old shooter that you just CAN'T adapt to a new and drastic shooting pattern. I doubt you're that old, though.

In airsoft, the decision is usually based on how sweeeeeeeeet it'll look once built. ...

Emotional decision? I'm pretty good at those, lol. And yes - I was definitely starting to get the feeling that it's just a matter of picking one based on what it looks like.

[juicy]

Whoops, I brought the direction this thread is going off topic... again. My bad.

Hammer springs... Swapped around a TM stock spring with one BB, Action red, KA, Guarder, KJW stock spring (for CO2, spring seems longer and a little stiffer, IMO). Currently have the Guarder in my MEU and the Action in my Hi-Capa. Hi-Capa isn't as consistent as I would like it to be. By that, I mean that the first shot is most definitely stronger. That's interesting that you say that this means that my hammer spring isn't strong enough, Brian. I was thinking to myself the other day about how I'm not finding that the Action 160% doesn't seem to be as crisp as the Guarder. Could this be associated to a difference in spring brands?

As to sears and leaf springs and hammers and the like - my Hi-Capa (largely KJW internally, seems like a high content of steel in all the bits, with the exception of the hammer strut) seems to have reached the point where I can't lighten the trigger pull by screwing around with the leaf spring without failing to drop the hammer every once in a while. Whoops - that didn't really make sense: I had my leaf spring set up for a few months so that the trigger pull was light enough to my liking, yet would often fail to let the sear disengage the hammer, resulting in the occasional trigger pull that would result in... nothing. Now, would swapping from the bent TM leaf spring to a IK/Prog4 leaf spring help me here? Or is it time for me to start scraping together the funds (and the appropriate areas in my KJW frame - lol, clones...) for an IK hammer kit?

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by juicy

the first shot is most definitely stronger. That's interesting that you say that this means that my hammer spring isn't strong enough, Brian.

That's not what I said. I said that if the first (several) shot(s) is WEAK, then it means the hammer spring isn't strong enough.

If your first shot is stronger than others, then it's operating completely fine.

Originally Posted by juicy

I was thinking to myself the other day about how I'm not finding that the Action 160% doesn't seem to be as crisp as the Guarder. Could this be associated to a difference in spring brands?

Double negative?

Yes, attribute it to differing brands.

Originally Posted by juicy

my Hi-Capa (largely KJW internally, seems like a high content of steel in all the bits, with the exception of the hammer strut)

Steel? Doubt it. The weight your feeling is lead filler in the aluminum casting mixture. Wash your hands after using. LOL.

Seriously though... I'm not sure specifically what KJW puts in their castings, but generally, when zinc/aluminum is cast, LEAD is the element used to add weight.

Originally Posted by juicy

seems to have reached the point where I can't lighten the trigger pull by screwing around with the leaf spring without failing to drop the hammer every once in a while. Whoops - that didn't really make sense: I had my leaf spring set up for a few months so that the trigger pull was light enough to my liking, yet would often fail to let the sear disengage the hammer, resulting in the occasional trigger pull that would result in... nothing. Now, would swapping from the bent TM leaf spring to a IK/Prog4 leaf spring help me here? Or is it time for me to start scraping together the funds (and the appropriate areas in my KJW frame - lol, clones...) for an IK hammer kit?

This actually sounds like the sear disconnector isn't properly slipping behind the sear. That is, the hammer is cocked back, but you required 2 or more pulls before it releases. If your hammer is down after the slide closes, well... that's another issue altogether, and this would usually be followed by uncontrolled full auto fire until the sear catches the hammer again. This would be represented by the hammer being cocked back (unless you ran out of gas)
Beyond that, I can't comment much.. I've fixed several KJW's and hated every one of them. They're so chock full of problems.... sorry, got derailed there. Anyways, you know how much I dislike clones.