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Aswayze · October 14th, 2013, 11:23

Some more good talk on this subject!

Danhay said: “Heck, the fact that the fat kid in the multicam cap has been singled out and become the subject of scorn and ridicule is itself an indication of a very broken attitude. Every member of this forum was once that fat kid in the multicam cap; we all had to start at the beginning.”

There is always an assumption by people who do not attend “serious” milsim events that we somehow look down upon new players or feel that we are inherently better than them. That is not the case. In fact, new players probably blend in better and are generally more accepted at serious milsim events than at normal events. The difference is that the Milsim guys are doing something very specific and the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap has to be the fat kid in the Mk6 kevlar helmet instead. A decent percentage of attendees at East Wind are literally first time airsofters. Most are coming for exactly what East Wind is putting on and are getting into airsoft just because it is the system we use some are guys who are wanting to get into airsoft and don’t have a reasonable community in their own area so decide to travel, some are coming for the opportunity to learn.

As far as the future of the sport goes, the issue with airsoft in general is not getting new people into the sport it is staving the rate at which we bleed experienced players back out. We get thousands of new players every year into our sport and just as fast, we lose thousands out the other end due to boredom, the fact that they plateau with their skill sets or just the fact that a regular shootem up game only has so many challenges. The Milsim style of play offers additional depth to the experience which helps give an outlet to players who would likely otherwise stop playing. Probably 50% of the attendees at East Wind no longer attend regular games, they have either just decided that they do not get that much out of them or like me, they are so tied up constantly doing East Wind related projects and such that they just do not have time for regular games. If you give experienced players and outlet as well then you’ll keep them around. You need these guys since the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap may be great but he’s probably not taking the time to run games, nor is he experienced enough to be a moderator on a web forum for you.

Then Danhay said: I should mention that I have noted more than a few so called 'elite' players who conduct themselves in extremely unsportsmanlike ways.

Great news for the Milsim guys: None of those dudes generally show up to serious milsim events. I coined the term “Samurai Pastry Chef” airsofters to describe what you are talking about. Those guys live to be the biggest fish in a small pond and they are not usually looking for a deeper experience because it might challenge them and (gasp!) point out a way in which they are inadequate. You just do not see that demographic at serious milsim events. Besides, since serious milsim never makes any money serious hosts do not bat an eye at kicking out players who are jerks.

Danhay also said: “However, don't complain about your sparsely attended milsim while denigrating the event which drew 300+ people that you felt did not live up to your standards.”

I don’t. My event has exactly as many attendees as I want. I am sure most of the other “serious” milsim guys are in the same boat. I am also not denigrating the event which drew 300+ people, I am instead usually helping on the admin end of those events and helping to organize the staff and provide vehicle support. I also recognize that the 300+ player event that is organized to provide the maximum fun to the “average” player is not the least bit interesting to me so I do not attend to play since I would get little out of it other than whizzing away a ton of bbs or getting pissed off by attendees not calling hits.

Danke said: “To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.”

Yep. It’s the same thing down here in the states… We always say we are trying to simulate the interesting parts not the dumb stuff. There is always a struggle with this and there is certainly a tendency for a host to chalk up their own poor performance to “that’s what the military is like” but in all reality, it’s much better if we focus on doing it well instead. A basic example: Scrambled eggs placed into an aluminum Mermite can turn green and then they promptly get cold and icky. I happen to like decent scrambled eggs and have no particular affinity for green things that are not vegetables so our cooks use stainless steel instead and we have cambro cans that keep the food hot longer. We are not milsim enough to eat crappy food just for the fun of it… Likewise, we’ll call formation usually on day 1 and day 2 mostly just to address everyone at once so we can cover the plan for the day etc but it’s not just for the fun of it, it’s just an easy way to have accountability and make sure Billy is not still in the porta-john.

Ricochet said: “Whining because something doesn't cater to you, means you are a part of a small, selfish demographic of people that are too lazy to start something yourself, or to see what the local scene is into, and finding a way to fit in.”

Oh my god yes do I totally agree with this. When I stopped doing local events to focus on East Wind I got no end to grief about this from everyone else who seemed to take it for granted that it is the job of event hosts to run games for the good of the greater collective. Nah, it is the job of an event host to put on the best damn game that they can and they will do that best when the gloves come off and they are able to produce EXACTLY the event that they want. It happens in my case that I really prefer an equipment oriented milsim event. To that end, I spend every evening and every weekend almost without exception readying gear, repairing things, planning, writing, training and getting all the pieces of the puzzle in place for exactly the event I want to run. If someone else is really into Pirates and wants to put the same amount of effort into putting together a pirate themed event that using home built sailboats on Lake Winnipeg then by God, they ought to do just that. If everyone makes exactly what they want then we’ll have the diversity to give us all a lot more neat and fun options. If we instead just listen to the people who whine endlessly and put wet blankets over every new idea then our sport will never grow past the same old same old events. Pretty much the fist litmus test for every new idea that gets bounced my way is “what are YOU willing to do to accomplish the goal”. People who come along with a bright idea for someone else to do are rarely worth listening to. Nobody needs unfunded mandates…

Congrats to both MadDog and Ricochet! You guys are really building the future, one bottle at a time.

October 14th, 2013, 11:23	#64
Aswayze Trader rating Join Date: Oct 2012	Some more good talk on this subject! Danhay said: “Heck, the fact that the fat kid in the multicam cap has been singled out and become the subject of scorn and ridicule is itself an indication of a very broken attitude. Every member of this forum was once that fat kid in the multicam cap; we all had to start at the beginning.” There is always an assumption by people who do not attend “serious” milsim events that we somehow look down upon new players or feel that we are inherently better than them. That is not the case. In fact, new players probably blend in better and are generally more accepted at serious milsim events than at normal events. The difference is that the Milsim guys are doing something very specific and the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap has to be the fat kid in the Mk6 kevlar helmet instead. A decent percentage of attendees at East Wind are literally first time airsofters. Most are coming for exactly what East Wind is putting on and are getting into airsoft just because it is the system we use some are guys who are wanting to get into airsoft and don’t have a reasonable community in their own area so decide to travel, some are coming for the opportunity to learn. As far as the future of the sport goes, the issue with airsoft in general is not getting new people into the sport it is staving the rate at which we bleed experienced players back out. We get thousands of new players every year into our sport and just as fast, we lose thousands out the other end due to boredom, the fact that they plateau with their skill sets or just the fact that a regular shootem up game only has so many challenges. The Milsim style of play offers additional depth to the experience which helps give an outlet to players who would likely otherwise stop playing. Probably 50% of the attendees at East Wind no longer attend regular games, they have either just decided that they do not get that much out of them or like me, they are so tied up constantly doing East Wind related projects and such that they just do not have time for regular games. If you give experienced players and outlet as well then you’ll keep them around. You need these guys since the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap may be great but he’s probably not taking the time to run games, nor is he experienced enough to be a moderator on a web forum for you. Then Danhay said: I should mention that I have noted more than a few so called 'elite' players who conduct themselves in extremely unsportsmanlike ways. Great news for the Milsim guys: None of those dudes generally show up to serious milsim events. I coined the term “Samurai Pastry Chef” airsofters to describe what you are talking about. Those guys live to be the biggest fish in a small pond and they are not usually looking for a deeper experience because it might challenge them and (gasp!) point out a way in which they are inadequate. You just do not see that demographic at serious milsim events. Besides, since serious milsim never makes any money serious hosts do not bat an eye at kicking out players who are jerks. Danhay also said: “However, don't complain about your sparsely attended milsim while denigrating the event which drew 300+ people that you felt did not live up to your standards.” I don’t. My event has exactly as many attendees as I want. I am sure most of the other “serious” milsim guys are in the same boat. I am also not denigrating the event which drew 300+ people, I am instead usually helping on the admin end of those events and helping to organize the staff and provide vehicle support. I also recognize that the 300+ player event that is organized to provide the maximum fun to the “average” player is not the least bit interesting to me so I do not attend to play since I would get little out of it other than whizzing away a ton of bbs or getting pissed off by attendees not calling hits. Danke said: “To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.” Yep. It’s the same thing down here in the states… We always say we are trying to simulate the interesting parts not the dumb stuff. There is always a struggle with this and there is certainly a tendency for a host to chalk up their own poor performance to “that’s what the military is like” but in all reality, it’s much better if we focus on doing it well instead. A basic example: Scrambled eggs placed into an aluminum Mermite can turn green and then they promptly get cold and icky. I happen to like decent scrambled eggs and have no particular affinity for green things that are not vegetables so our cooks use stainless steel instead and we have cambro cans that keep the food hot longer. We are not milsim enough to eat crappy food just for the fun of it… Likewise, we’ll call formation usually on day 1 and day 2 mostly just to address everyone at once so we can cover the plan for the day etc but it’s not just for the fun of it, it’s just an easy way to have accountability and make sure Billy is not still in the porta-john. Ricochet said: “Whining because something doesn't cater to you, means you are a part of a small, selfish demographic of people that are too lazy to start something yourself, or to see what the local scene is into, and finding a way to fit in.” Oh my god yes do I totally agree with this. When I stopped doing local events to focus on East Wind I got no end to grief about this from everyone else who seemed to take it for granted that it is the job of event hosts to run games for the good of the greater collective. Nah, it is the job of an event host to put on the best damn game that they can and they will do that best when the gloves come off and they are able to produce EXACTLY the event that they want. It happens in my case that I really prefer an equipment oriented milsim event. To that end, I spend every evening and every weekend almost without exception readying gear, repairing things, planning, writing, training and getting all the pieces of the puzzle in place for exactly the event I want to run. If someone else is really into Pirates and wants to put the same amount of effort into putting together a pirate themed event that using home built sailboats on Lake Winnipeg then by God, they ought to do just that. If everyone makes exactly what they want then we’ll have the diversity to give us all a lot more neat and fun options. If we instead just listen to the people who whine endlessly and put wet blankets over every new idea then our sport will never grow past the same old same old events. Pretty much the fist litmus test for every new idea that gets bounced my way is “what are YOU willing to do to accomplish the goal”. People who come along with a bright idea for someone else to do are rarely worth listening to. Nobody needs unfunded mandates… Congrats to both MadDog and Ricochet! You guys are really building the future, one bottle at a time.