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-   -   FCC 2013 new release (https://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=152394)

Off_kilter March 15th, 2014 20:14

Yeah this is sad...I had high hopes for a AK PTW when i saw those teaser shots.

redneck12 March 15th, 2014 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1876202)
So far the guys that stand behind FCC 100% have nothing more to offer than hearsay that they in fact own a fully functional FTW
"why tear apart a good gun?" is their defense, which makes sense. But considering the amount of evidence against FCC, a well documented take down of a good FTW would be the only thing we'd accept as proof.

I'd LOVE to have someone with a well built FTW post up a well documented take down showing some evidence that FCC is capable of making a proper TW. Nobody has stepped up to the plate yet, and honestly given the number of poorly built guns, I personally still wouldn't chance buying one.

As far as I have seen the only ones pro FTW are the guys that invested in the company and distributors.

ThunderCactus March 15th, 2014 20:31

I'd stick that quote in my sig if I wasn't so sure it would ruffle someone's feathers lol

redneck12 March 15th, 2014 20:48

Just from observation even guys on Youtube that were showing off their FCC's have stopped posting beyond the build or initial purchase. And same with ASC certain supporters of FCC have gone quiet. Just doesn't seem like FCC is actually listening and taking the feed back in and implementing changes. Its a pitty cuz they have some really nice looking builds and for the pennies you guys fork out for them you expect results worthy of the cost.

Ricochet March 15th, 2014 21:23

Luckily, there's still Systema. Not only better, but cheaper. Go figure.

SuperHog March 16th, 2014 23:30

Like to report my A&K PTW is working flawless with zero issues. I would have thought the gear box, cylinder or motor would have died by now, but still humming along.

At $420, you can't beat that.

ThunderCactus March 17th, 2014 00:44

If you compare them to AEG's which are on the same level, I'd rather run a CTW or A&K ptw, simply due to the fact they're based on a superior platform, and they still retain the modularity of the ptw for ease of maintenance and troubleshooting

Nova316 March 17th, 2014 10:11

A&K is surprisingly an good platform, only the electronics are a little weak.
If/when they burn out replace them with systema and you are good to go for quite a while. I had a buddy who got into the sport and went A&K over FCC/Systema and I replaced his boards when they failed with old 2007 systema boards I had laying around. Its been flawless since

SuperHog March 17th, 2014 10:24

I use to own a CTW but sold it. The fit and finish and also A&K PTW compatibility to a Systema is much better.

Azathoth March 17th, 2014 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by redneck12 (Post 1876147)
I was looking at their rails and a few other bits and bobs, how are they quality wise.

They look nice but only the prototypes and the ones that went to dealer/distributors are of the high quality CNC product. At the price you are being charged you are better of buying a real version for an extra $100 dollars.

See the quote below:
Quote:

Originally Posted by redneck12 (Post 1876205)
As far as I have seen the only ones pro FTW are the guys that invested in the company and distributors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMatersk (Post 1876196)
Any pro FCC guys want to chime in on this? I'd like to hear what they have to say. I was actually blown away when I got to try a FCC product last year at TAC was very close of purchasing a gun from them. Any new development? I'm kind of glad I didn't buy into the hype after reading everything.

Only the guns that I have seen in the hands of the FCC stakeholders in Hong Kong and in the dealers in Canada have been of high quality. IE Full billet CNC from tool quality steel or aluminum. The other complete guns that are being sold are put together and built to a far far far lower standard, die cast, cnc finish 'metal' that is hardened (gears), or die cast cnc finish for the externals.

I agree with Brad, the only product that I have seen from FCC that is good to go IMO is the selector rack.

Ricochet March 17th, 2014 12:13

And "some" of their receivers.

ThunderCactus March 17th, 2014 16:26

If the dealers and stakeholders really DO have the top end prototypes and we're stuck with the BS they're marketing, then that REALLY grinds my fucking gears. Straight up insulting to no end. It's like a Rolex dealership spent months advertising their watches and went and sold us chinese knockoffs for 15% MORE than a real Rolex. And then you call them on it, and the salesman is like "well MY Rolex that I bought here is a real Rolex, so you must be full of crap."

So this whole time these (very few) persons have been arguing against us saying FCC is good, and their FTW is awesome, it's been because they had a special we-suck-your-dick model?
And after being presented with a pile of indisputable evidence against FCC, their argument is their special blowjob model is good, therefore people should still buy FTWs.
That's absurd.

But just to show that I am fair, I will (no bullshit) give someone $20 to post up a detailed and photographed review of a quality, properly working, and at least up to systema-spec FTW bought in 2014, specifically detailing every spot where we have found faults in this thread and showing that it is INDEED problem free and worth at least as much as a systema.

Show me your cake!

Ricochet March 17th, 2014 17:46

Yeah, but then you still have two severe problems. For starters is the cost. It's so much higher than Systema, but yet doesn't keep up performance wise. Who cares about fancy externals, I can customize it myself later. Second, if you're even going to bother, then you have to make up for Systema's short comings, motor, hop, lower receiver, etc. Couple that with a guarantee/warranty, and we'll talk. Otherwise what's the point? Why wouldn't someone buy a Systema instead?

Screw it because it works, it's a product, it's suppose to work.

ThunderCactus March 17th, 2014 18:50

Well to give them credit, factor in the cost of the rails and special receiver and stock on there, they come out being about on par with systema. But DTW quality or less...

-Trooper- March 18th, 2014 12:56

I'm no FCC rep, just a average shooter that was tired of fixing problems with AEGs and the lack of accuracy with GBBRs.

I wish I could take your money ThunderCactus, but I bought my FCC 416 back in 2013. As you may know, it has been running fine. I'm still running the 2.5 motor and the only thing I have upgraded was the hopup rubber and the pinion gear.

I haven't really kept up with FCC's products, but the last time I checked their FTWs had cast bodies, not CNC.

One other person I know recently got his FTW and withstood the torture test they put it through.

Now, I don't have access to that FTW since it's not mine, but were there any concerns I can answer for you guys?

ThunderCactus March 18th, 2014 16:50

They state on the site that they're receivers are all machined from billet, but all the receivers we've seen so far have been machined castings.
If you DO want to check something for me, I'd like to know if the motor hole in your receiver is to spec. After taking apart Austin's FTW it's apparent they may have fixed the gear lash issue, the only other major flaw is the motor hole.

What I'm looking for is a decent sample size of 2014 FTW's to verify if they've been fixing problems or not. A few AEG companies have improved their game over the years, maybe FCC can do the same.

The other, and most important, issue is something that can only be verified by a sample of FTWs, and that's product consistency.

So, I'll trust that yours, and that other FTW in the GTA area are good. And we'll even assume they are up to or surpassing systema specs.

But even then, based on what we're finding, only 1 in 7 FTW's are any good.
So even if they CAN make a same quality or better product than systema, what is the point in buying one if there's a 6 in 7 chance that you'll end up with a $3000 DTW?

SuperHog March 18th, 2014 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1876896)
They state on the site that they're receivers are all machined from billet, but all the receivers we've seen so far have been machined castings.

I had this debate "STEALTH", he told me in the airsoft world, "billet" is slang for "pot metal"

http://airsoftcanada.com/showpost.ph...7&postcount=24

redneck12 March 18th, 2014 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1876896)

But even then, based on what we're finding, only 1 in 7 FTW's are any good.
So even if they CAN make a same quality or better product than systema, what is the point in buying one if there's a 6 in 7 chance that you'll end up with a $3000 DTW?

Just shows you need to win the lottery and buy 7 FTWs in order to get one if your lucky it's like going to Vegas and playing Craps.

c3sk March 18th, 2014 19:45

I sold off my PTW's, both were constructed from scratch with FCC parts and Systema bodies (One was an FCC Noveske body build) They are still going to this day without any problems. With the exception of the 416 I had from FCC, stripping of the FCC pinion gears was a major concern and pain in the ass. From what I noticed while watching FCC's product releases, was that they became quite inconsistent with tolerances of their upper and lowers and overall CNC build quality. I think the pinnacle for FCC quality was right when they started releasing their first build of rifles, and the first 416 line, they were heavily focused on quality and scrutinized over the details of each rifle, and as such were able to maintain a warranty program. After that quality control seemed to slip considerably.

Of course this exact same thing has happened to Systema, so I am not really surprised. At the end of the day, as the end user, I will take what ever works best from multiple companies and build a custom blaster as I always have.

I think FCC can be salvaged for the Canadian market if they go back to doing what they were doing best. Making replacement parts for reasonable prices to fill the gap and demand which Systema created.

dongtheimpaler March 18th, 2014 19:57

I have an FCC 416 that I received from DTT in early 2013. I haven't changed anything on the gun and it has been running perfectly fine this whole time. I'm not a tech by any stretch of the imagination so there certainly could be issues if I opened up the gun and scrutinized it.

ThunderCactus March 18th, 2014 20:51

Specifically the reason I want 2014 FTW's for this is because the problem isn't the first set of guns they built, it's their current guns. Can't judge a company based on their first line of guns.
I still want to take apart a 3.0 motor, haven't heard good things about them so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperHog (Post 1876935)
I had this debate "STEALTH", he told me in the airsoft world, "billet" is slang for "pot metal"

http://airsoftcanada.com/showpost.ph...7&postcount=24

Except you don't forge pot metal into a billet, then machine it, you might as well spend the extra for real metal for the amount of machining required lol
It's also far more cost effective to cast and machine. A more correct saying is; "CNC" in the airsoft world, means a CNC machine once performed some sort of operation on the cast part.

Even with high quality castings that have been machined, there are always tell tale signs of it being a casting. Like systema for example, when someone breaks an upper receiver, there's usually some anodized black spots on the broken side of the receiver tabs, those are casting cracks from uneven cooling.
With FCC, the most notable faults are where they machined through the wall between the mag well and mechbox areas. In a casting that's to proper size, like systema, you wouldn't get that break through.
Unfortunately, but fortunately, nobody's broken an FCC receiver yet to inspect that. It's not often someone spear throws a ptw anyway, let alone an ftw.

Azathoth March 19th, 2014 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1876965)
. It's not often someone spear throws a ptw anyway, let alone an ftw.

Challenge accepted., next time we see each other. Hope you can catch.

Ricochet March 19th, 2014 09:08

Kind of a moot point, once again it isn't an improvement, may as well go with Systema. Remember, it's all about better, or what's the point? You're charging more for less no matter how you slice it. Systema hop-up is solid, with the mod is fantastic. Systema motor is an unknown, with the mod is fantastic. Systema receiver is more than good enough, may require an upgrade or replacement should the worst happen. Basically that's it though. Go that path, and technically you end up with the best airsoft gun on the market for around $2,000. FCC is not an improvement on "any" area, especially on the ones that Systema needed improvement. I'd say their hop-up was a little better, but maybe not as solid as a stock Final Evolution. Cylinders, barrel, boards, gear box, etc, aren't quite as good as Systema, yet here's a "higher" price tag? Even if there are FCC guns out there still running, a modded Systema is far superior for much less. I think they dropped their custom parts and careful manufacturing, for fancy, overpriced platforms.

-Trooper- March 19th, 2014 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1876896)
They state on the site that they're receivers are all machined from billet, but all the receivers we've seen so far have been machined castings.
If you DO want to check something for me, I'd like to know if the motor hole in your receiver is to spec. After taking apart Austin's FTW it's apparent they may have fixed the gear lash issue, the only other major flaw is the motor hole.

What I'm looking for is a decent sample size of 2014 FTW's to verify if they've been fixing problems or not. A few AEG companies have improved their game over the years, maybe FCC can do the same.

The other, and most important, issue is something that can only be verified by a sample of FTWs, and that's product consistency.

So, I'll trust that yours, and that other FTW in the GTA area are good. And we'll even assume they are up to or surpassing systema specs.

But even then, based on what we're finding, only 1 in 7 FTW's are any good.
So even if they CAN make a same quality or better product than systema, what is the point in buying one if there's a 6 in 7 chance that you'll end up with a $3000 DTW?

Ya I can check the motor hole. Might take a couple of days before I have time. What should be spec for the motor hole?

ThunderCactus March 19th, 2014 19:06

the motor shouldn't move side to side at all, and the hole should be centered in the receiver

SuperHog March 19th, 2014 19:48

The motor should be rigid once the two dowel pins are press in which locks the motor in.

ThunderCactus March 19th, 2014 20:22

We've found the FCC pins to be loose
The pins only really stop the motor from rotating
With Austin's FTW, the motor had shifted sideways during normal operation and disengaged from the bevel gear.

SuperHog March 20th, 2014 08:43

If it is shifting along the armature shaft axis, the armature wasn't shimmed properly.

-Trooper- March 20th, 2014 12:48

I can tell you from my experience that there is a slight wobble with the motor. Seems like the pins weren't to spec.

If you check TW-Works it says that FTWs are cast bodies. I believe only the accessory parts of the gun are CNC'd.
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...&highlight=FCC

ThunderCactus March 20th, 2014 14:29

I believe Austin's FCC 2.5 moved up and down about 3mm, it had the most armature play of any TW motor I've seen so far lol
Mine wasn't much better before I reshimmed it
Although I think they mounted their armature too low on the shaft, every time I reshim an armature the shaft is .2mm shy of the end of the bearing. Whereas the systema usually sticks out of the bearing a little. So with the FCC you have to mount the pinion gear fairly high and loctite it in place, whereas the systema you can bottom it out on the flat, ensuring it will never ride down.

-Trooper- April 8th, 2014 09:49

I finally found some time to take a look at my gun. There is a slight wobble with the motor the lets it move left to right, however, not enough movement to do any damage. There is no play up or down. The motor hole is also dead center. Other than that, there is nothing else out of the ordinary with my gun.

Azathoth April 8th, 2014 10:36

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhP2YYd2BsI


Frank this is Austin's gun? I found a solution that will fix the motor issue 100% (sold him a systema)

I believe Kullwarrior is running a FCC2.5 in his 2008 PTW. The motor screeches and makes an awful sound. The FCC2.5 motor also cannot pull a M150 either. The engagement between the pinion gear is likely the culprit.

ThunderCactus April 8th, 2014 23:38

The 2.5s lack torque, it's evident in active braking where the sector gear typically overshoots the normal stopping position when the receiver is open.

Trooper, good to here they got at least one receiver right!

Ricochet September 29th, 2014 18:24

What's the future of FCC? Are they giving up, or are they going to take another kick at the cat?

mcguyver September 29th, 2014 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricochet (Post 1913296)
What's the future of FCC? Are they giving up, or are they going to take another kick at the cat?

I hope they continue. They have been a boon for Systema parts and service. And I can ask way more for Systema parts now.


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