Typical Noob Questions: Which is better?
 

While there are many reviews on specific guns made by each company, and a lot of information located on this site, as a former noob, many of my specific questions were not answered and i figured this would be a way to help out the noobs. For other users, if this post does become worthy of ASC, perhaps we can answer more questions that noobs have, so lets keep this down to noob questions and experienced answers.


What is better, Classic Army (CA) or Tokyo Marui (TM)?

This is an excellent question and one i hope to answer in this post. To begin, lets first start off with a brief history of the two companies. For starters, Tokyo Marui is made in Japan (obviously) and were the first creators of the AEG (Automatic Electric Gun). From their first design (Version 1 mechbox with the FAMAS) started the basis for all other airsoft gun designs. But with the myriad of choices currently out there ranging from Full metal (Classic Army) to ABS (Tokyo Marui) many noobs have stopped to wonder which they should get. For me, when i first started, i was told to go with Marui. They are renowned for reliability out of the box. However, the Classic Army guns lure new folk with the promise of full metal bodies. So what do the two offer? Lets begin in detail shall we?

Tokyo Marui
These guns offer incredible reliability out of the box and the chances of receiving a lemon from them are slim to none. While they are made of ABS plastic (most of the time) and have a moderate fire speed, they can take a beating and keep on kicking. Here is why that is in brief. In Japan, they have rules and laws regarding airsoft speed. Thus the guns are made to be bought and used without upgrading or any maintenance whatsoever! This means that as a noob, you dont have to worry about your gun crapping out on you. Keep in mind that you will always find the occasional person who had a bad experience, but generally, TM guns are made to last. I know countless people who kept stock internals (in one instance for 4 year!) without so much as a problem. However, i have also heard a handful who bought guns that failed in under 10,000 shots. Never-the-less, they are generally known for having excellent quality control (being made in Japan) and because of that, are known to be received in working order and made to run in their stock performance flawlessly for an almost indefinite amount of time.

Overview of TM

Pros

Out of the box reliability (Excellent Quality Control)
Easily upgradeable
History of success (designed the first AEG; all other airsoft guns are based off their design)
Solid Performer (can take a beating and keep on kicking)
Little to no chance of purchasing a lemon

Cons

Medium Rate of fire
Low FPS out of the box; Averages 280-315 (315 for M14 only)
Expensive to upgrade; Needs both external upgrades (if you wish to make it full metal) and internal upgrades (if you wish to increase power and increase reliability) --> upgrades such as a piston, piston head, and air nozzle are a must for CA guns. I have also been informed that it is a good idea to replace the hop-up rubber.

Classic Army
These guns are quite superb and are recommended by many people. But despite that, they might not be the best choice for noobs. Lets find out why. Classic Army is a Taiwanese based company. That being said, they are known, especially in the past, for having shoddy internals that would either fail in a short amount of time, or in some cases (and i have witnessed this firsthand) have failed out of the box. However, it should be noted they have stepped up on their QC notably. However, it is still not equal to that of TM. It is for this reason that most people purchase these guns and upgrade them before they are fielded. Of course, there is the hadful of instances where people have opened them out of the box and have had them run flawlessly, but the general consensus is that you have a higher risk of buying a lemon from this company than from say TM. That being said, their exterior quality is excellent for what you pay for and you will receive a beautiful looking gun that is as solid as a brick. However, what use is a gun if you cant use it? This is why as a noob, with no knowledge of upgrading guns, one should stick with something that has the lowest possibility of breaking down. Hence TM.

Overview of CA

Pros

Come with Full Metal Upgrade (FMU)
High ROF out of the box
Higher FPS out of the box than TM (averages 315-330 for most of the guns)
Cheaper to upgrade (just internal upgrades to make it reliable and shoot harder)

Cons

High possibility of buying a lemon (Lower Quality Control)
Best bet is to purchase internal upgrades with your gun have have them installed just so your gun is gameable and wont crap out on you
In brief, higher startup cost if you want headache free gaming.

Conclusion
While both guns offer their own pros and cons, for a total noob to the sport, it is important to get a gun and start playing. It is for that reason why i recommend a TM gun, which has a track record of performing flawlessly out of the box for an incredibly long amount of time. That being said, it is important to note, that in the long run, it would be cheaper to purchase a Classic Army rifle as the exterior is already upgraded whereas the TM isn't. In both instances, as you progress in the sport, you will most likely upgrade your internals for both power and (in the case of TM) increased reliability (in Classic Army's case, just reliability to start with).

Example comparing a TM M4A1 vs CA M15A4

Internal upgrades:
Both use a Version 2 mechbox, so both would have the same basic upgrades such as:
Spring guide
Air Nozzel
Piston Head
Spring

Cost is the same

However, the difference would come from the exterior where TMs would cost more as they would have to pay for a metal body on top of the internal upgrades to become equal to the Classic Army in every way. However, the internal upgrades mentioned are almost an upfront necessity with CA guns just to get them up and running reliably.

With regards to your purchases of airsoft. If you want reliability, but like the idea of a full metal gun stock, i recommend the following products by TM as they have metal where metal should be on the real deal. All of them are rock solid performers and are an excellent choice for ANYONE starting airsoft:

TM M14:
Full metal upper with synthetic stock (real wood stocks can be purchased). Shoots amazingly well for a stock gun. Can be upgraded to near sniper levels. Plenty of parts available for the mechbox (V.7), which is known to be reliable and solid. Overall, the TM M14 is a better choice than the G&G or CA M14 (both have the same mechbox and aftermarket parts). While said guns have a superior synthetic stock when compared to the TM, there are virtually no aftermarket parts available for them when compared to the TM M14. All of the aforementioned guns have metal uppers and out barrels.

TM M4 SOCOM:
A full metal M4 with RIS made by TM. A new V.9 gearbox that enables the gun to have a recoil effect. Aftermarket parts are already available by notable companies such as Prometheus. Takes special mags and has a working mag-catch feature that prevents the gun from continued firing once the last BB has left the mag. This is a great choice for those who want the blow back feel without splurging on a gas gun that can only work during the summer months. This is a good choice for those who want something unique to the airsoft world.

TM P90
Metal rails and polymer body. Just like the real deal. Can't go wrong with this gun for both indoor or outdoor. Mags can be difficult to find, but with the advent of Echo-1's P90, compatible mags are no longer an issue. Tactical Tailor makes p90 mag pouches in a variety of colours

TM Type 89
Manufactured for the Japanese Army as a training weapon (that's right, made by TM for their army), this gun is full metal with a V.8 gearbox that has a mechanically controlled 3 round burt feature as well as the Safe, Semi and Auto. Takes both Type 89 mags and M16 mags. Many aftermarket internal parts available. a great choice for those who want a unique rifle that is durable and has TM's legendary reliability.

Despite the evidence i have just presented, i still hold fast to my belief in obtaining a gun that has a notable track record of running flawlessly out of the box for new players. This way, you can play with it and get the feel for airsoft and upgrade it over time both internally and externally. Without the headache of not being able to play.

Good luck with your airsoft endeavors!

Donster 125

P.S: To the vets, if i missed something (as i am fully aware that my knowledge isn't complete), either PM me or post it up and i will add it :)
To noobs, there is some gun specific problems listed below, such as TM specific Armalite problems etc. Read on to gain more valuable knowledge regarding airosft!

EDIT (for those who dont want to read the rest of the thread): 13/01/09

My thanks to LUTNIT, who posted the original version of this list. I have kept everything identical to what he wrote (including his final thoughts), except for the small addition of JG to the mid-level category as well.

I will post it later this week, but if someone wants to do it for me, a comparative view on GBB from TM, KSC (explain the difference between that and KWA), and WE would be great!

For SMG's and pistols, as long as you don't mind the abs, TM is much better but you forgot to mention the infamous barrel wobble of the TM long guns, especially their Armalites. That's a big con in my mind. I don't mean to turn this into a debate of CA vs TM but I thought that deserved mentioning.

Kuro_Neko

Just to add a note tm also suffers well their armlight's from tabs that break on their recivers do to their being plastic.

Not to knock your effort or anything, but this review does little for noobs. You didn't say anything about FPS, rate of fire, accessories that are compatible with it, etc, etc. All this "guide" seems to talk about is reliability when there's a lot more to look at and take into account when choosing an AEG.

The rate of fire is why I stayed away from TM guns. I've never been impressed with them. Out of the box, their ROF is nothing compared to a CA or an ICS.

Well if I was new into the sport I would like something reliable. Not something that would break every 5min. I've seen some V2 gearboxes that have had these issues. Most of the time its pistons. Which is a common CA problem. That being said yes more comes into play than reliablity.

This might include things like;
-Which has better externals?
-Which parts are upgraded in a G&G or an ICS, or CA?
-How does it relate to real steel? ICS, G&G, PTW's have a lot that is sized similiar to real real steel or are the same size as real steel in the PTW's case.
-How does it hold up in adverse weather?
-What are common problems with said brand? Too much lube, not enough. Bad piston, gears, bad metal, etc.
Cost?

Also keep in mind there is a CA sportline which like a TM has a plastic body.
They are also priced similarily. So it boils down to the V2 gearbox you like better.

Jing Gong would be my choice for a starter gun, cheaper & upgradable!

I always thought CA was out of HK...

Anyways, maybe you should add a few more companies; Aftermath, ICS, G&G, Well, JG, CYMA.

For the Aftermath mini review make it known it's an "upgrade gun".

Sorry I can't do a reliable review cause I've don't have experience with these companies so yeah....

very true. i will go back later today (if i get the time) and add said details such as ROF, FPS etc etc. I simply wanted to answer a basic question that i had when i first started and if someone pointed me to this when i first got into the sport, i wouldn't have had to ask so many questions about the difference between CA and TM.

I disagree with you greatly.

Most people give CA a bad name but base that on their old versions. I will openly and honestly say that the new CA guns are much better than marui guns in every way.

TM's M4's are horribly flawed, they have a stupid 5 piece barrel system, awful plastic tabs on the receiver, If you've ever tried upgrading one it's a huge pain in the ass, there's almost twice as much that you need to disassemble compared to a CA.

I personally will only ever own a TM M14, TM VSR10 and TM Pistols. Classic army is the way to go for everything else.

Jg (jing gong) is a great starter brand gun cheep and simple now I know their ak vs's are great and from understanding they don't suffer a lot of problmes due to their v3 mechbox and well the way airosft aks go to gether and well are reltivly easy to up grade. But on the not of their armlight brand I have owned personaly the hk 416, m16, m4a1 and pretty much all of them sufferd from some sort of wobble. The m4a1, m16 uses' the tm flawed barrel desing but that alone is a reltivly cheep fix with a d boys(30 shipped to your door via ehobbyasia.com) or going up to a higer brand name one piece metal barrel but I found the d boys did the job. As for the 416 the ras I found came loose and well needed reajustment fairly often but it wasn't a huge problem but due to the nature after market metal bodys were basicly a no go due to the price. As for their mp5 series I haven't owned one but they as a whole on reviews have gotten hands down approval.

the best way to start airsoft is to buy a baseball bat, duct tape and a hammer.

these accessories can be used to be thrown or as melee weapons in airsoft.

they are much more relialbe than CA or TM guns, and the rate of fire is cant be compared cause there is none.

IMO

Let's try to make sure a post is at least equal part humour to useful input. ;)

IMO

+1

I have been dealing with CA guns for the past 2 years, both mine and others, and both used and new, and have not found a lemon yet. I have also not heard of any lemons here on ASC popping up. They do have fairly brittle pistons compared to TM yet I have never seen one strip with stock parts. The only stripped CA pistons I have seen are from people putting in 400+ fps springs and using the stock piston body.

CA's new motors that are speed and torque specific are great, sure they aren't anywhere near a SystemA turbo or magnum but they turn over stronger springs with less voltage and give higher rates of fire with less voltage than TM motors.

Even the plastic parts on CA guns are far better than TM. My CA AUG has fiberglass reinforced plastic where a TM is all solid ABS. CA guns have a nice texture (the G36 series is the best example) where a lot of TM guns are smooth and almost shiny. CA also uses steel where they should, the foregrip pin in my CA AUG is steel where its potmetal in a TM and is known to snap off.

Like Amos said, the only TM guns I would buy are the M14 (best there is, period) and GBB's (can't speak for the VSR-10 since I have never owned one.)

I haven't heard of it in a while here on ASC but CA guns are also now as far as I know all standard part compatible. Where in the past they had funky dimensions on some things like mechbox shells and buffer tubes so you had to use CA parts, now they are all standard and work find with all the major aftermarket companies parts.

after seeing all the information going against what i have said. i think i will have a mod remove my post. what i posted was just an accumulation of knowledge from several sources as well as my empirical evidence. However, it seems i was greatly misinformed. my apologies to you, ASC.

I think the title of this thread should be changed to "Why no simple answers to which gun", because that's the educational point that it makes.

Everyone has varying experiences
I wouldnt say you have been misinformed Donster. Just because someone experienced something one way does not mean the experience will be the same for another person. If anything, this entire thread is just a big collection of info for an entry level airsofter to read over and take all its points made into consideration.

What really bothered me though is how we have the noob tank section when it's pretty much the same as the FAQ section.

Maybe we should just change the name of the FAQ section to "the noob tank".

That's really just my opinion and we should probably sticky these or make a copy and put them into the FAQ section.

i see your point, but this section is where noobs can ask their questions without being worried of being flamed. basically its for all the nice guys like T7, m102404, etc etc who will answer questions with the upmost patience. Also, pointing noobs to the FAQ in this section is kind of redundant IMHO. Basically, this is a "Get out of Flame Free Section" where noobs can ask and commit the most serious of ASC noob crimes and get away with it.

The Saint and I discussed this earlier on today. Essentially we both agree that unlike the FAQs where info is static fact, this area is an open disccusion that reveals both sides of a situation in regards to a topic.

have you owned both TM and CA guns? both of the same version?

Personally I'd much prefer the CA over TM(M4s anyway). And if you are to ever expand the guide, don't talk about guns that you've never owned you're self.

As long as noobs finds all these exchanges informative... You see, for me ROF is not an issue. Since I fire 90% of the time in semi or very short bursts, I don't mind TM's lower ROF. Same goes for FPS. I don't NEED a 400 FPS gun to play well.

Out of the box, for the prices we pay here, I want something that works without having to open it up and play around in it.

Would you buy an ass-cheap computer that need all the internals swapped or upgraded just because the casing, keyboard and mouse looks cool ? I'd go with unpack-plug-play. The rest can be changed later.

I agree. I play mainly semi auto so a low fps is nice also for a first time player it would be better. I say this because what if you got lit up to close from a gun that stock shoots 350 you don't like it. But if you get lit up by a tm which will shoot 250 to 280 (depending on the barrel length) and its slower rof your not as pissed.

And all Donster was I think trying to say in general was TM is the Benchmark to which others are. So having a CA TM comparision is great. I think most should be TM/brand x. I've always been happy with TM stuff. I haven't owned alot of it. But it was some of the best I have had.

I see your guys's points, it was just the first thing I thought when I read the announcement of the new section. It does make sense so I guess I support this.

I don't know what brand my AEG is but I still think that we should include some of the other models (G&G/ICS/Well/Aftermath). Since the Well's and Aftermath's will most likely be more in the price range of a noob.

eg. something like this. (I'm sure it's already up somewhere on the site) You guys are free to modify this list and redistribute. I just think lists make things concise and short. Then we can link to reviews of the companies.

Low Grade
Aftermath (non-standard hopup units, rubbers, and barrels but easy swap)
CYMA (have been getting better, full metal usually now, I'd almost put them in Mid Grade)
Cybergun (they are an importer, not a manufacturer, Cybergun branded guns are usually Well)
Well (not sure I would even rank them this high, they are bottom of the Low Grade barrel at the very least)
JG (known to be solid performers but chance of getting a lemon and all plastic)
Echo1 (rebranded JG's, sometimes with cheap potmetal bodies added)
AGM (at least their M14's, other than hopup/barrel its a TM clone)

Mid Grade
G&G (full metal but known for shoddy internals)
STAR (known for motor problems and pistons stripping)
TM
KWA (verdict is still out for long term reliability, might be high grade)
King Arms (again, verdict still out)
ICS (come stock with mechbox busting aluminum pistons, slightly non-standard gears but can be replaced with standard ones if you swap the bushings)

High Grade
CA (full metal full goodness)
G&P (godly)

My opinions. I wouldn't put TM in high grade; I mean they are top quality for reliability and lasting forever out of the box (have heard stories of stock TM guns going 200K+ rnds without a problem) but they just need so much work to get them to a serious level. It does kinda pain me to put ICS in Mid Grade because I swear by them and love them, but out of the box performance could be better. With a little work ICS guns can be amazing though, definitely top end.

I wouldn't classify Cybergun as any... they rebrand all different companies so they shouldn't be relegated to just one.

JGs are now full metal with 7mm ball bearing bushings, shooting at 380-450fps out of the box.

+1 totally
Props to CA :D

I wouldn't consider JG, Echo1, and CYMA to be "low grade". Sure CYMA has some low end shitty guns, but their higher end guns are amazing.

I'd consider those companies "mid grade", with TM and KA and probably others should bumped up to the "high grade".

Oh, so they made them less reliable, thanks for the heads up. I have had to replace 2 sets of ball bearing bushings recently because they blow out under normal use. One was in a 325fps mechbox and the other in a 400fps mechbox. Both sets where SystemA bearing bushings, and not the cheap Area 1000 ones. Solid metal all the way, didn't effect my ROF at all, still pushing 23rps.

ok no man i have heard systeam parts have gone down hill i used the deep fire ones and put around 10 k rounds threw it and still going strong on my mech, if i rember correctly it was aactulay jgs that used the weird bushings stock so this is a total upgrade.

I would consider a JG as mid grade !

JG are clones of TM ,s they are not all plastic !as matter of fact JG are getting better than TM,s

I agree, I have a JG M733 and it is extremely solid and well built. Not only that but they are cheaper than TM and any part that isn't as good quality can be easily replaced by a TM part.

I got a CA M15a4 rifle (m16a3) and it broke after 5 minute of shooting.After i Opened the box obviously.On the other hand i also have a CA M15a4 carbine (m4a1) and its still runnign perfectly after 4 games.

I also got a CA slr105 a1 and its a total beast.Awsome rof and realiability.

So CA are realy the alfa romeo's Of the airsoft guns....you dont why,when and what is going to break...but they have a soul that no other brand have (juste like an alfa)

For TM a have a tm g36c and its 5 years old!And it never cause me ANY problem...thats why i respect tm,they juste keep running for ever,just like a toyota^^

you DO realize that the last post in this thread was almost a year ago right?

Yes i know..im sorry if i did a kind of bump,but i realy wanted to give my opinion on that subject.

Sorry

Just wondering...
 

I am considering buying an SRC MG36 as my first 'real' airsoft gun. I read some reviews about how the gen 2 guns (the 36c's and k's anyways) had problems with the hopup putting a side spin on the bb's among other things and was wondering if anyone on here has one of these guns. If someone could provide me with some input on this gun I would really appreciate it. Here is the address for the gun I'm thinking of purchasing if it helps. http://www.mach1airsoft.com/web/cata...om&id=31&cat=3 Thanks for any assistance.

To bullydog, the 3rd gen fixes most of its problems having in 2nd, including having a metal hopup chamber.....its a decent gun at a decent price considering the upgrades included.


Where is VFC classified on all these brands ??

you guys realize that CA and TM are no match for KWA G&G or G&P right?

nice try troll

Obvious troll is obvious.

Thanks for the input. I will hopefully be purchasing one of these before summer. Now I don't suppose anyone could help me find an age verifier near Sydney, Cape Breton. I would really like to get that done with. A trip to Halifax is possible for me but anywhere farther than that isn't really feasible right now. I am 26 but you can never be sure on the internet and I understand and respect that. Just want to get it done so I can contribute to/take advantage of the other services this community offers :) Thanks and sorry if this doesn't fit the topic.

I believe submarineman is in Halifax. Check the verifiers list to be sure and PM the people you wish to meet with.

Hey everyone, so I've spent a few weeks (nearly 2 months) researching which AK I am going to buy, after all the research I've done I'm not quite where I'd like to be. I just got Zeon to do my age verifiacation so that should be updated soon(ish) and I wanted to get some input from others who have used/ owned AK-47 AEG's. What are your opinions / problems with them, best / most reliable brand and price range based on quality? I'm looking for something mid to high quality. I don't want to have to do much upgrading (if any) and wants something that will stand the test of time. Thanks in advance to any help.

If you want the greatest quality for your dollar, you may wish to look into real sword AKs. A lot of people recommend them as some of the best AKs a person can buy. Theres a couple of threads on here and Im sure you will manage to google up some decent info as well.

Aside from real sword the other two recommendations I could suggest at this time are Tokyo Marui, because they have fantastic interior quality however their exterior quality is decent but parts are made from plastic. The other company I would suggest is Classic Army, their RK line has some beautiful models with externals made from real wood and metal.

how are the G&Gs? I have an offer on one for 500 with battery, charger, 1 hi cap mag and 2 low caps (wood and steel) is it worth it?

Ehh....

I would still go with the RS Type-56 (it will set you back about $800 though). It just can't be beat. In addition consider VFC as well, I've heard some great things about their SCAR and if the quality in that translates to their other lines then it should be considered alongside with CA and TM.

But honestly wait until you get your AV tag (shouldn't take more than a week or so). That way you can clearly see all your options instead of wandering around half blind then when you get your AV tag and can see all your options regretting the original purchase.

Nope. $800 is on the high side for a RS Type 56, especially the Type 56-2.

where do I even get one now? can't find anything recent that will ship to Canada. Are they easier to get once AV'd?

Yes, you will have access to the classifieds, which have a plethora of rifles, pistols, accessories etc, etc.

I think I found a new Type 56 for $650 with no battery or charger. Is it worth it?

Real Sword, like many other higher end airsoft brands, does not include battery and charger in their package.

But is that a good price? (not including shipping)

I payed 660 for my Type 97B and alot of people tell me i got a deal on it so i'd guess for a Type 56 650 is fair, besides it's a real sword, you can beat it into the ground and it'll still shot:D (just like the REAL AK)

Used/pre-owned, I assume.

BNIB lol

Waiting game begins (Type 56). will post pics soon.

I hope you didn't order it from outside the country...

I don't think he did.

Lol everytime someone mentions vfc ak's I think of that vfc AIMS that guy's been trying to sell in the classifieds since 2008!!! started off at like $1300 n is around $800 last time I checked hehhehe

no in country.

Got it in today, Which is Better? the answer is Real Sword if you're talking AK 47, Thanks to everyone on the feedback and suggestions, I'm truly glad I dodn't go with the G&G. I know its a decent gun but I doubt it holds a candle to the Type 56.

Never seen any gun that comes close to the quality to a RS gun, only ones that did are the Inokatsu LMG's which is a whole different kind of gun.

Congrats Im no fan of Aks but those real swords do look nice
mind you I wouldnt be overly willing to spend that much on a gun lol

tho a VFC SCAR-l is damn tempting

thanks man, and believe it or not my Girlfrind/wife pitched in, I was only going to get a G&G wood and metal version. Gotta give thanks to awesome women.

Hey im thinking bout buying a gun and I was wondering what src ment.

it says: motor: src


?

Manufacturer name, SRC = Star Rainbow Company

Both your girlfriend and wife pitched in? Damn, that's impressive !

I just threw down over $600 on a VFC M4 yesterday and I have yet to tell mine :D

VFC SCAR-L is so damn sexy. Just got mine a week or so ago.

Wow, I love how I asked a question similar to this about some other G&G guns last week and got flammed on like crazy and then got in crap for posting the question and it was removed...:rolleyes:

faq section has all the answers

*hint age verification is the key

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...onses/noob.gif

Just doing some research.

https://www.buyairsoft.ca/manufactur...black-max.html

or

http://www.mach1airsoft.ca/catalog.p...&id=426&cat=23

Internal/externals. I hear G&G are a good company. Since I live in Vancouver I can't get the VFC versions. :(

Why can't you? VFC is the better option here.

I was originally looking for the Uramex/VFC 416 DX model. I'm going to go for the VFC below I think. Has some decent reviews. Thanks for the reply. Unless there is anywhere I could find one that you know of.

http://www.mach1airsoft.ca/catalog.p...&id=426&cat=23

Um, why not from there?

Also it's site policy not to help anyone not AV'd with buying guns or pointing out where they can buy guns.

Yeah, I know about the AV. I've been in touch with Optix about setting up a time since he's close to me. Just need to find a day I can make it out to the store or panther since its close to me.

WE m4
http://www.camouflage.ca/WE_M4_CQBR_...2_p/we1003.htm

or

KJW m4 (C8) I guess looks more canadian.
http://airsoftgear.ca/index.php?main...roducts_id=929

KJW out of the box is probably better (the "father" of airsoft, Tanio Koba had a hand in helping to design the KJ M4), but if the WE is Open Bolt version and you're willing to dump at least $400-500 of RATech parts into it (NPAS kit is definitely needed, and everything else after that is pretty much reinforced/durability parts) you can have a solid GBBR.

Also VFC has some new GBBR's coming out for 2012. Maybe you should wait for them if any of the retailers get their hands on them. They'll probably cost an arm and a leg though. I know the old VFC GBBR's did at least (but also partly because they were a bit rare to find landed in Canada back then as well).

Oh okay, I'll keep my pants on for a-bit then. Was just at airsoftgear earlier today to take a look at some stuff :)

I've been in touch with Optix about setting up a time since he's close to me. Just need to find a day I can make it out to the store or panther since its close to me.

This thread is so damn old CA is still considered high grade O_O
CA; shiny ass plasticy paint on the M4 receivers, made of weak pot metal, the 249s are notorious for losing parts, A&K who cloned their 249 actually makes a better box mag, their mechboxes aren't fully TM spec in bushing placement, weaker mechbox shells, quality goes up and down depending on how their sales are doing, notoriously some of the least reliable internals.
Let's everyone be honest, they make only half decent guns and the only reason CA was ever popular is because they had the only decent full metal bodied guns on the market 4-7 years ago, the only decent MP5s, the only metal G3s, and the only marui compatible 249 (anyone remember TOP? and STAR's clear plastic LMG mechboxes?). I'd rather buy a G&G M4 these days.

I'd move STAR to low grade (I've been in a few, they're REALLY bad) and CA to mid at the very most
ARES and A&K at the bottom end of mid

marui can be argued....they're high quality in terms of stock reliability, but too expensive when you consider it's performance limitations. Costs a new gun to upgrade to a metal body and going above 350fps costs a new mechbox shell.

Add realsword to high quality, they're tanks

and whats everyones opinion on LCT? Their bodies are excellent but I know nothing of their stock internals

cool

Interesting