What m4 to get? GBBR / AEG
 

Ok so I'm going with an mk18 mod 1 build but I cannot decide which route to go down in terms of the actual gun. Most base AEG's / GBBR's that I would buy would get alot of the parts swapped (sights RIS stock outer barrel *unless it has a 10.3" outer*) out so I'm trying to find an inexpensive gun. Like a baseline vfc / g&p such as this http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_inf...oducts_id=5730

But when I saw this g&p woc challenge kit I immediately was interested in it since you can get more realism for a great price, and since I'm swapping out most aesthetic parts the price is perfect. I but I read that the WA system it uses has terrible gas efficiency. The km4 seems to have too many problems in the long run too. So I'm at a dead end.

AEG: Cheap to maintain, inexpensive magazines, high rps

GBBR: Added realism, can be costly to maintain, expensive mags

If I can get a great gbbr at the price of an aeg then I would do that. Money isn't an issue but I do not want a low quality gbbr like a G&G unless they can compete with the higher quality ones. Not looking to buy a systema or innokatsu either lol.

Have you ever used a GBBR?

If not, how can you know what brands are good.

I have been running some WE for over a year, all games, even in winter.
Nothing broke and it's hell of a performer.

Maintenance is a breeze compared to an AEG.

Only down side is the mags are 40$ a pop, but when you have them, it literally cost nothing to run (ok, some propane, BBs and a few drops of silicon oil).

Don't buy-in to those that say you have to upgrade the shit out of it internally, it only need a rubber and barrel.

GBBRs are extremely easy to maintain and easy to diagnose any problems. everything is mechanical which means its very simple to repair/replace. Yes mags are expensive but they are also built very well (G&P Pmags).

AEG mechboxes are very intimidating to open/work on (in my personal opinion). If I needed to I can swap out my entire firing mechanism in about 10 minutes.

I built a scratch WA m4 with no previous experience and with no special tools. I used a 1/8 pin punch, a rubber mallet. a small allen key set and a pair of philips and flathead screwdrivers.

as to WA system effieciency, i can easily get 2 full mags (39 x 2) with gas left over. no personal experience with WE mags, from what I've heard you should get the 2nd gen.

So you think the g&p woc would be just fine?

I like the WE family for their RS compatibility, I don't know how WA fares in that department. You get better and often cheaper parts if you buy RS (I know, right?)

WA is RS compatible with accessories, any rail you put on it if its a decent replica then you shouldn't have any problems with RS accessories. my carbine has all RS Magpul accessories and it all fits perfectly, even the STR stock on a G&P buffer tube, no play.

G&P WOC is a good system to start your first build.

I haven't decided on the woc, I'm trying to weigh the options and buy the best one

Something to take into account is while gbbrs are easier to maintain, they require more frequent maintenance. AEGs are much less maintenance heavy, but are much more complicated if you ever have to take it apart.
Also, GBBRs r much more sensitive to temperature. Not sure about AEGs in rain, but i know GBBRs are okay as long. Would be a good idea to dry them off afterwards.

@archangel
Much more complicated?! you must be kidding:

Gbbr:
2 receiver pins, no tool required;
open, remove bolt carrier and charging handle, clean, relube, done.

Aeg:
2 pins, some models are screwed
Small trigger pin (need a punch); remove mag catch (need a screwdriver or allen key)
Remove stock
Unscrew buffer tube (different screwdriver)
Remove buffer tube
Split receivers
Wigle the gearbox out of there
Remove 8 screws with another 2 different screwdrivers
Insert screwdriver in spring guide
Split gearbox shell hoping everyting will go alright
...
And I'm sure I forgot a step or two...

Yeah, you have to maintain gbbr more often; but you can do that 10times before you can do it once with an aeg in term of time it'll take you

[quote=-=ArchAngel=-;1784428]Something to take into account is while gbbrs are easier to maintain, they require more frequent maintenance. AEGs are much less maintenance heavy, but are much more complicated if you ever have to take it apart.

You know, he did say AEGs are much more complicated, not GBBRs. Just saying. :)

Haaaaa my bad, i must have read too fast! :D

I have real steel guns so that's definitely a plus and something I'm used to.

But after all this I still have no idea which road to go down :ss

If you have real steel, you should feel right at home with a GBBR. Truthfully, what brand you buy won't really determine the quality. What you put in it afterwards will determine it much more. Generally speaking, the WE platforms are cost effective, realistic, and are absolutely loaded with aftermarket upgrades.

I have had both AEG and GBB now and once you go GBB it's really hard too step back into the AEG
I guess it depends on what kind of game you want too play really, AEG hi-cap mags are endless ammo where GBB has, more often than not, 30 rounds making you take your shot's carefully

I don't see many upgrades out for the kjw m4 and that is a huge factor.

Its down to KWA LM4 vs G&P Challenge Kit vs WE M4

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The KJ is, imo, the best overall GBBR on the market. And there ARE upgrade parts for it.. in mine I have the RAtech blue hopup rubber and the Cradle V3+ (the cnc aluminum) bolt with velocity reducer. The gun is also compatible with most aeg front end sets. But that is really getting into aesthetics. Functionally, everything important is either good to go OOTB or has the part available.

Sorry that the above wasn't the most well-thought out message.. but can you tell I love my KJ M4? lol

TBH It's more than I want to spend LOL. If anything If I was gonna spend that much then I would probably just go with the lm4...

I think I've decided on the challenge kit but does anyone know if I could use a KA lower instead of the stock G&P lower but put all the G&P internals in the KA lower?

you'll need a KA Upper if you decide to go with a KA Lower. the size of the front part of the receiver where the front pin is placed is different. also you'll need receiver pins for the KA set as G&P body pins are larger than KA.

So its probably not worth the trouble?

If you dont mind working with a KA receiver set then it doesnt make any difference cause you can get the same G&P internals, all you need are KA body pins.

I thought the buffer lock and buffer are different

INTERNALS OF KING ARMS WE AND KWA GBB M4'S - YouTube

That's something I still can't understand. I'm a GBBR lover but I have to admit with my 2 guns (KJW M4 and WE G39) below 5 degrees, I start to have inconsistency on heavy fire (still single fire but repetition). Around 0 degrees, I can fire a couple shot in single but I can't handle a whole fire fight. My GBBR performance decrease too fast...
I never tried below 0 degree, but I guess it's worst. I don't talk here, fire a couple shots in the backyard, but supress an ennemy in single fire (I don't even try full auto by this temperature.
I got the same thing from both of my guns...

Yeah, you are not alone. Everyone I play with can't understand. It just does work all the time.

I can't run my M4 below 10c, it will misfire and spray icy cold liquid propane everywhere.

Same mags I run in winter in my SCAR. Also, no upgrades (except NPAS) in both guns. I have played this Sat. with the SCAR, got plenty of nice hits, and bolt lock on empty every time. After 2-3 consecutive shot, I started to get some cloud at the muzzle. Obviously, I try not to suppress when in theses conditions.

I did not keep me G36 long enough to field it in winter, so I can't comment, but I was barely able to empty 2 loads of BB in summer on a single gaz fill. Maybe because of the mag design or the plastic shell insulates it so it can't heat-up as fast...

I played games in December and January with the SCAR. Was damn cold theses two days, with a HUGE snowstorm on Dec. 27th. I had some trouble for the last couple of shots each mags, but managed to hold a position for a good 10 minutes. Went through my 8 mags.

I'll also add that while I love my LM4, there aren't a whole lot of internal upgrades for it. You can get an NPAS, a tightbore, and the phenominal Maple Leaf hopup, but that's about it. I would suggest, if you want to tinker and upgrade, go with a WE or a G&P. I will add, however, that the LM4 works very well in cold temperatures. I can get through all 38 rounds in my Pmags in full auto at around 3 degrees, all 38 in semi all winter.

ra tech custom WE seems like a decent choice. The gen2 mags for WE are great. I have not had one leak yet....yet

The coldest it gets here is about 55 F so I don't have to worry about that haha. I think that the lm4 might be the better option since it is newer and will likely have tons of upgrades to come whereas the g&p is older and is decreasing in part availability? I'm not sure on that but if thats the case then of course I have to get either the lm4 or the we... someone correct me though

Here's how I see this, but keep in mind this is merely speculation;

Third party parts availability is normallu driven by the demand, as these third party make them to take your money;
The higher the demand, the more parts available, logically

I can see two reasons that would drive this demand:
for one, it would be because the sheer numer of user of a given platform is higher than most competitors; it is certainly the case for WE, as we know there are a loy of user of that platform, probably because they are often cheaper when buying the thing initially

Second reason is somewhat linked to the first, and that would be because there is a *need* for those parts, usually to fix issues that the stock gun have and need fixing, be it either out of the box or after a few hundreds/thousands rounds

What I'm trying to say is that a large amount of third party parts is not necessarely good; remove everything that is for look or personal preferences from the equation, as it doesn't really matter here, and picture a perfect gun that wouldn't break and shoot 300 feet with toght grouping, have realistic kick and crazy high gas efficiency; this gun would probably wouldn't see any upgrades as it wouldn't need any.

WE is said to be gameable out of the box, but is known to inevitably need replacing of the innards at some point. If you replace with higher quality parts or stock is up to you, and you need to figure out if you want to deal with that or not.

Kwa's LM4 is much more recent but also have its share of issues; it probably does't run as well as a good WE out if the box, but very few mods are needed to make it go strong, and involve very few parts to buy (probably just a replacement of the hopup unit and bucking) and a quick mod of the bolt catch. It's not to say that it would run forever though; everything can break, and under certain stress, everything *will* break. But I have a feeling the LM4 might have the equivalent of ratech's internal whenit comes to the important parts. Again, keep in mind I might be wrong on this; i just read a lot :p

So long story short, don't make your choice on third party availability; you should choose accordin on how you want to deal with your gun and its issues I'd say

Hooe this help you make a choice; but be sure to read all info you can before making your choice, so you won't have any surprises when you go hands on

Remember that the first WE Openbolts where GEN5. I ran over 10k rounds in mine, and yet have to find worn parts anywhere.

This is still old rumors about the first few closed-bolt WE rifles.
If you decide to go with a WE, please DO NOT UPGRADE internals, other than the rubber and barrel. It will last forever.

And I am not talking about 1 in a million great gun. We (our group of friends) run 5 WE rifles, from Gen1 (my M4) to Gen6 (newest BNIB open bolt). All the closed bolt have been converted to open bolt last summer. And none of them have issue except my friend's 416. He has a full RATECH trigger kit and steel bolt. The NPAS in the aluminum nozzle is based on WA/Magna system and is unstable and eats o-rings like crazy.

If you don't want to go with WE, G&P/KA/WA would be best second choice. Not, they are not reliable out of the box, but there is so many different company that makes parts, you literally cannot run out of supply.

As for age, WE was the first, then WA/G&P, then Ino/KJW, then KWA.

Are you saying they are reliable out of the box or they are not? I would buy a WE but I cant find one available in the states anywhere :s

Don't have personal experience with WE yet but his iss what I keep reading ...

Side A
-Replace all inner working with Ra-Tech
-Costs a lot more
-CNC parts may prove to be very reliable but concerns about hardness of different materials rubbing against each other that may cause wear to parts no upgraded
-Upgrade parts may not be to spec so may require mods and/or cause other issues

Side B
-Run it stock till it breaks then replace it with more stock parts
-Stock parts are cheap
-Gun supposedly runs smoother with stock parts and no issues with out of normal wear from material compatibilities

Welp I guess I'm going with the woc :o

So many choices man, I just hate that the woc has such small mags and only g&p makes them

EDIT: HOLY TITS THE MAGS ARE SO EXPENSIVE WTF I could have a polarstar for that price

What did you think?

Also all the GBBR mags are the same size as real mags... I don't really get why you say they are tiny. BB load? 30rnds is the standard too... makes you count your shots, like the real thing.

Standard price is around 40$ a mag. You usually need about 8-10 (I have 8 and find it's not enough for long scenarios, so I bought an extra 12).

Yes, you can get a P* for around 650$, but it's not in the same class. Really consistent, yes, but no recoil/feel at all. Good for support weapons or sniper/marksman rifles (I plan on building a SR-25 with one when I get the budget).

As for availability, I think ATF is being an ass with the WE M4 GBBRs... something about "If you are an armorer, have access to a lathe, have a restricted full-auto trigger group and extensive knowledge of the AR system, you can rig the gun to fire one bullet in [full auto] before the gun explodes on you.", so the classified the rifle as a fully-automatic rifle, and banned or something...

The WE lower receivers only needed to replace the upper with a complete weapon upper, and bolt catch removed to fire.
The G&P receivers had to me machined and shimmed to fit a M-16 automatic trigger assembly, and because some nutjob ATF weapon smith managed to do it, it became an automatic firearm...

However, to give you an idea of how much the guys in charge know about this, the spokesperson inserted the magasine BACKWARDS (curved towards the back/trigger) at the press conference.

My mags were 55-65 a piece and I bought 9 additional :)

craziness.

This guy is selling a lightly used lm4 with 2 mags for 350 so I might just buy that to take some of the cost off my shoulders lol

Thats not a bad deal, just remember there aren't a whole lot of aftermarket parts for it. If you're in California, why not check out Airsoft GI? They've got a bunch of LM4s that they sell, all with different rail sets and such. They've been pushing the LM4 for a while now. Plus, they have warranty.

It still has the kwa warranty. I dunno I would buy one new from AGI but this one has two mags and has little wear so I figured the mags alone make it worth it

Just remember the warranty is void the moment you start doing a detailed disassembly of the rifle.

And you have to use green gas and KWA bb's and I believe you also void the warranty if you remove the orange tip.

The warranty was voided when it left US. Read the pamphlet, its only for US customer.

Location: California
That might explain it.