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See through guns and the death of "airsoft"



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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:33   #31
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Originally Posted by Brakoo View Post
... bitched that the organizer didn't setup trash bins and didn't bring water for everyone.
Really? Aren't we all adults here who can take care of ourselves? I mean bringing water is kind of a given as is taking your own garbage, putting it in a plastic bag and throwing it out when you get back home.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:37   #32
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Originally Posted by Brakoo View Post
Holy shit man that is so true, I went to a game a month and a half ago and in the AAR thread people bitched that the organizer didn't setup trash bins and didn't bring water for everyone. When I dared replying that stuff like that is for everyone to take care of and not the organizer to grab them by the hand I nearly got lynched for being so "mean".
Man, what? I try and treat this sport like camping. You bring everything you think you'll need, and then take everything you brought with you, back with you - which includes garbage.

If you're going to an outdoor game, and you know it's going to be hot out, bring a few bottles of water with you. If you know you're going to be there past dinner time, bring food. Unless you're at a game where you pay a decent amount of money for a field fee, and it actually states that food is included, then don't fucking bitch about it.

It's like going over to someones house that you barely know, and expecting them to do everything for you and feed you because you're royal ass is there.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:46   #33
Brian McIlmoyle
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Originally Posted by m102404 View Post
So where does that leave things? There's potential for a lot of game play for event organizers...but the baggage that comes along with that might not make it worth while.

Basically a lot of guys/games have gone out of the mainstream. The doors that used to be open to newcomers are closing more and more. New guys who bitch at an extra $5-10 per game, no free food, no chauffered ride, lack of handholding and general coddling...set a tone for how things are going to go for the gen public/newcomers.

There's hope though...if the mindset/attitude is there, they'll get into the "good old" stuff (guns, gear, games, events, players). If not...who knows?'re getting old and stuck in your ways...
I am getting old and stuck in my ways... I guess.. You know I have only been around in the AS community since 2005 ... but its like night and day with respect to the types of guns and players ...

I remember the vets telling me .. when I came in that the "old ways" are the better ways.

the old ways were... people found out about AS through friends .. they got invited to come out and were mentored into the community, showed the ropes, tuned up on safety and expectations.. trained, At first they ran on borrowed guns and gear.. eventually they got their own guns and gear and they were indoctrinated and intergrated fully.. then they mentored someone else. Growth was slow ... but quality was high

it's not that way now.. its is about opposite... with all the incumbat issues... lack of communication , lack of standards, lack of cohesion or any feeling of belonging and consequently the lack of respect or conformance to expectations.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:50   #34
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Location: Toronto [Uptown]
I can see both sides of the coin..
I believe the cheaper entry point
with clear soft tends to attract
players without enough overall

Anyone I know who's invested a
large sum into their kit/guns has
invested an equal amount of
research and training. Which has
lead them to becoming better
and safer to be around.

My only concern with new players
is safety— ie: the blind firing, head
shots, hot stock china-guns, video
game mentality etc etc.

Playing your first few games with
mil-sim veterans is a good way to
get on the right path.

PS: I'm done with AEGs, so I will
be renting from now on. I won't
care if it's clearsoft or black, as
long as it works the whole day.
Retired — Freedom 35
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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:50   #35
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Speaking as a new player but almost middleaged man I'd like to give my two cents. If you want new players to have better gear it has to be more accessable. Except in the classifieds, and the few odd custom order runs all anyone has is Cansoft, and now most of that Cansoft is the CAS variety So if you want new players to have black guns the age verification system needs to be sped up. That means more age verifiers and faster updates. Yes I know that all av'rs and mods and staff volunteer their time, and that they have lives outside of this forum. Great thats as is should be, but if the senior members of this forum want newer players to have better equipment I suggest makeing one or two AV mods. Mods who's sole job is to update av status. I also suggest a sticky on " You need this to play(minimum).

Anyways thats just my two cents but I can honestly say that if it weren't for a couple of vets who pm'd with info when I asked questions and who took me under their wing alot of my choices would have been poor and uninformed. Alot of the younger players don't have that much disposable income, so they need to make the right choices the first time around. Its you senior forum members who have to shoulder the burden and "make" airsoft players out of newbs.

Well thats it...end rant.
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eeyore, the more I look at your avatar, the more I find it looks like a vagina...
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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:54   #36
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Canadian LEGAL Airsoft products are still undergoing a big transition.

Sure you have guys like CAS and Mach1 who came into the airsoft scene for strictly business purposes and now each have exclusive right of their own. But that's only for three manufacturers, it's going to keep growing, through them or who knows?

But just give it time, there will be more brands and products available soon.

I don't know if those two have certain agreements with the manufacturer like meeting a quota every year or what not but I hope they can maintain it because the amount of players we have in Canada is still very small.

As for the old cranky dudes, no problem! You guys have been around long enough to know where to get your toys.

Some of you run games like Brian does. Just change the structure of the games and be more strict (no playing if your not prepared) Especially for those who just want to come and hurt people it's just not cool.

Now from a retailer perspective, I haven't fully invested into the clearsoft thing because as it is the market isn't ripe enough and the amount of work I'd have to put in (isn't worth it) because of how big a pain in the ass it is to setup your own line of products.

Before CAS got exclusive rights to KJW and G&G it was a decent deal to get guns direct but what worried me was the time you'd need to offload everything.

Until manufacturers warm up to Canada and stop telling us to buy from the U.S. Distirbutors (because China already makes clear guns, they just greedy) it'll be tough.

For the guys who sell black airsoft well, greed was what sparked the whole shitfest back in 2006 if it wasn't for that ClearSoft would still probably be unheard of and you'd still see a whole lot of guys still in the game.

But those guys still exist but with the growing amount of cheap players to add on to the typical stupidity retailers have to deal with it just makes you think "Is it worth it?"
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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:59   #37
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Compared to last year, hell yeah I've seen alot of clear this and clear that (usually the lower end stuff too, Cybergun Sig/M4 even a Crossman M4)

Sure, I can sort of understand being on a tight tight budget so you get what you can.

I believe in what Brian has said, new players get shown the ropes from experienced guys that way we don't have some new guy going around telling the newer guys the wrong story.

(K, so I don't get bombarded with PM's, yes the Sig is an okay gun just on the lower end scale)

Last edited by Forever_kaos; August 7th, 2009 at 13:33..
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:02   #38
deep in the bush
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putting a hinge on pandoras box

so if we cannot put the genie back in what do we do?

I am old and more bitter than all of you combined. (always wanted to say that )

Can a clearsoft section be made or a companion forum to ASC? maybe ASC-Clear? That way all the folks can discuss how to fix shatted plastic and fix plastic gears.

I think this just another stage for the sport. The clear would create this... not sure yet which way to lean as up here we do not get many krakens etc... we do have G&G AEGs with smoked uppers at am wondering what clear AEG's we are discussing? (G&G, ICS vs bass pro/Wally?)

I am not sure if it the death or the democratization of the sport? (both frought with challenges)

I do agree that it is up to us "old folk" to help show the ropes.... but you can only lead a horse to water. it is up to the horse to drink.
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
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Last edited by deep in the bush; August 7th, 2009 at 13:04..
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:09   #39
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#1. Entry price point and whether the see-through-ness/quality of the gun is NOT the issue. The issue is how new guys come into the sport and how they're "brought along" by the existing player base. There is a correlation though...lower the price point, google friendly purchasing sources, etc...and you end up with simply more new players. What group/games these guys hook up with sets a tone with them that stays for a long, long time...and only serves to reinforce that tone for the next newcomer.

#2. I'm all for helping out a new guy. F*CK, I've even given a guy the belt off the pants I was wearing so he could shoot the qualifying session of CAPS (and the f*cker beat me that afternoon too......and you're damn sure that I made it clear that he'd be expected to show up with his own gear next time). I've been around the block a couple of times...and I think I can get a pretty good read off of someone pretty quick. If I think that they have the potential to be good for things...I'll go out of my way, take a $$ loss, invest my time to see that they get a good start. So far, that effort hasn't failed me. I personally see very limited return for that...but the others those guys go on to play with benefit greatly. As long as I'm involved, I'll continue to do that.
- but some guys, more guys now...just don't seem worth it. They're childish goofballs.

#3. The biggest impact that can be made is by the guys who organize the events. The tone is set's personal, it's reinforceable and it is as consistent as the organizer wants it to be. The cat's out of the bag so far as controlling the market re. price/quality/options....can't go back.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:09   #40
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my two cents:

I have been watching this sport since i was 15, Ive watched almost every single airsoft video i could, For years I thought about joining the sport and when I turned 18 and saw a gun I wanted for sale on the classifieds, I bought it and its not clear but it is a "Hot outta the box china make" Sure she dont shoot straighter than a TM and she ain't upgraded with systema this and prometheus that but at teh end of the day she shoots 6mm .20's about where i want em to land, I recently joined a team with some good seasoned people because i wanted to learn the ropes on everything from tactics and weapons,
I work a part time job and am slowly aquiring what i need to be a somewhat worthy players in the eyes of the older breed(Gear and upgrades), But Did I do wrong to the community by joining this early?

I completely understand that this game is expensive but if i needed a quality TM to be somewhat excepted which costs 700-1000 dollars to even be near the ranking of the "Old Farts" maybe i did fuck up.
It's not about the guy who doesn't call his hit. It's about the pants you're wearing and the pants you're team mate is wearing, Is it real multi cam or is it Chinese repro multi cam? I don't know but in the end it's still multicam.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:12   #41
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As and aside the clear reciever stuff is shipping to the UK now. They have a set and established law about airsoft, and realistic and non-realistic replicas.

The Cansoft style fits a large niche in the UK, and with that larger market will come more manufacturers, and more options to buy.
Airsoft, where nothing is hurt but feelings.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:13   #42
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There is a growing gap between the Hi, Mid and Low end.
AirSoftGuns, CanSoft or SoftAirGuns. All have a place in ASC but the players and dealers operate on differnt levels and do not seem to play well together.
So ASC should examine cutting the boards.
Members are welcome to move back and forth, but lets put barriers between the dealers and Classified and Games sections. SoftAirs should not attend AirsoftGun games and when you get a better gun welcome aboard. Same thing goes that you buy at differnt levels and you will be informed of the limitations of the Toy you are buying
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:18   #43
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Calgary has seen a big jump in player-base due to clearsoft. The number of new people who sign up on the JOC boards and actually get out to a game is way higher than it was just last year. The clear guns actually perform quite well and you can't even tell unless people are loading up. We went from only maybe 2-3 outdoor games a week during the summer to a skirm almost every week with indoor games 2-3 days every week as well. Without exception, the new players have had a blast and I'm sure many of them will be throwing money into the airsoft sinkhole in no time.

The "concentration" of new players is higher which does worry some people but I think given the nature of airsoft, cansoft is a good way for people to ease into the sport. As a relatively new player, good clearsoft wasn't around when I first started and I wish it was. It would have been easier on the pocket book and I would have been able to buy gear with the money I saved. For example, I used a black vest over a multicam BDU for a few games because I couldn't afford another vest.

Game organizers: If you want serious players, make that clear. A lot of people spend their money on guns (let's face it, the cansofts are still pricey) and don't have a lot left over for BDU, vest etc. In Calgary we run a lot of skirms on smaller fields where I would say jeans are perfectly acceptable. Skirms are where a new player should learn and pick the sport up. We do however run some milsims and I think a gear requirement for those is also acceptable or maybe even a requirement of having one season under their belt.

I understand where the "elitists" come from. You don't want the sport to get watered down by new players. Yes, unprepared players can be a drag on a game (especially when they get dehydrated and get heat stroke). The solution is simple, let the new players run around at skirms and make gear and experience requirements for your games.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:20   #44
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Originally Posted by deep in the bush View Post
....Can a clearsoft section be made or a companion forum to ASC? maybe ASC-Clear? That way all the folks can discuss how to fix shatted plastic and fix plastic gears.

I think this just another stage for the sport. The clear would create this... not sure yet which way to lean as up here we do not get many krakens etc... we do have G&G AEGs with smoked uppers at am wondering what clear AEG's we are discussing? (G&G, ICS vs bass pro/Wally?)
LOL...Deep, if the fact of the thing being clear or not made or broke things, I'd keep a case of black spray paint in my gear bag and hand it out for free at games. Show up early and I'd spray away the clear for you...

But it's not. It's the nut behind the butt. It's how the individual considers what needs to be done, decides how to do it and their mentality of what they're going to do. Everyone will follow direction...usually they'll just bump along with whatever the group is doing, good or bad. Establish the direction...and they'll follow that (which I've seen you do with plenty of guys).

If a new guy starts out and sees that people are organized, taking things in a fun but focused approach, "bonding" (or whatever you hippies are talking about..jk ), calling hits, etc... then they'll do that if it's in them to do that.

If a new guy is an a--hat and shows up to events like the above, they'll very quickly figure out (or be told outright) that this sport isn't for them. They'll either find the off-grid sh*t or they'll pack it in. But if they find mainstream groups/games that tolerate a--hatery, then they'll end up there.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 13:25   #45
Brian McIlmoyle
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My concern is that people can now "get into airsoft" on their own.. they don't need any sort of indoctrination .. no skills and no knowledge required.

Buy a gun .. and show up , no questions asked.

When these people make mistakes .. or it turns out they are of dubious character.. there are no ramifications and no possibility of censure.

We try at that time to "download" the knowledge through social pressure.. or as is the case in most situations .. we grumble about "stupid kids"

Mostly its not about stupidity .. the issus is ignorance .. which can be fixed.

I think we should raise the bar.

We require as a community 18+ and AV status to buy guns from this community .. We should also require a AS indoctrination before people can participate actively in force on force engagements.

They do this in other places, the Western New york AS comminity is one example.

then at least everyone starts off on the same page and at the same level and no one can claim ignorance for breaches or safety or protocol.
Brian McIlmoyle
TTAC3 Director
CAPS Range Officer
Toronto Downtown Age Verifier


If the tongue could cut as the sword does, the dead would be infinite
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