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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:55   #346
Brian McIlmoyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
The idea of a course (especially a 4-hour course) is kindof over the top and totally unnecessary. Pretty much everyone who plays airsoft never had any kind of "course" and they play just fine. Many newbies who pick up a halfbreed come out and play and fit right in.

The issue is that, a year ago, for Joe Somebody to get an airsoft gun they had to jump through hoops, get AV'd (which meant if the AVer felt the dude was a schmuck he could refuse to verify), then order on the classifieds and wait anywhere from a few weeks to several months before they had an AEG. This had the effect of weeding out the very casual player that has no desire to participate properly.

Now, as someone mentioned it (I think it was Crunch) the AV status really means fuck all. Any dumbass can get an airsoft gun. This has result in more dumbasses with airsoft guns. Of course, we've said time and time before, Age Verifacation is only an ASC policy and isn't for policing airsoft.

What's needed is game players with the balls to report stuipidness and hosts with the balls to do something about it. If someone is being a fucktard, take them aside, explain things to them, and if they are still being a fucktard, kick them off the field. Post their names on ASC for public ridicule. They'll shape up pretty quick after that -and if they don't, they'll run out of places to play real quick. The airsoft community in Canada is still pleanty small enough to accomplish that.

Second, reinstate a minimum equipment requirement for games (I say "reinstate" because this used to be done but it seems noone does it anymore). You want to play a game? Show up with some BDU's and no n00b-caps. $250 will get you two sets of BDU's and a bunch of magazines (well.. usually ). "Oh but I can't afford it!" Tough shit. Airsoft is an expensive hobby. We stopped telling people the "set aside $1,000 to get into it" because every time we did a few people who managed to get good deals on stuff would come in and be like "No you can do it for less blablabla you don't need that much blablabla." Fuck that. Hobbies are expensive. EVERY hobby has a minimum level of equipment required -whether it be model building, Radio Control Planes/Cars/Boats/Tanks, Biking, whatever- why the hell should airsoft be any different?

Third, have "newbie days" where new and aspiring players can come out and talk to those of us who have been playing for a long time, where they can ask their questions. It's also where we can EXPLAIN all this shit to them and tell them that "Yes, this IS a hobby, and there ARE expected standards."

Honestly, we can't blame newbies and halfbreeds for all of this.. we've let our own standards drop considerably. A lot of shit that goes on now would never have been tolerated a few years ago.

Oh and one more thing: If playing with a black gun, proper BDU's, and a proper LBV make me an elitist, good. I didn't get into airsoft to run around in civies with a clear gun.
Excellent post, thank you,

in my opinion... some of the reasons we are dealing with issues regarding safety standards and behavior on the field is because people who are 3 months into the activity are Hosting games.. in some cases the "host" does not have a strong grip on standards .. and does not know how to address problems and tHey get out of hand.

There are 2 possible approaches here...

1.regulate the players and educate and enforce up front.. as some have said , force players to jump thhrough hoops to get in.

2.Regulate the hosts and make sure people who are hosting games are capable and willing to do everything necessary.


I have been at games where it was not clear who was the host.. where there was NO MENTION of safety or proper procedures. Where there was NOTHING DONE in cases of breach of safety.

This happened because the person hosting had no idea what was expected of them.. they just rolled over and decided to host a game.. thinking all that ment was posting a sign up list on ASC and showing up for some shooting fun.

I think it needs to be a field owner/ hosts perogative if they want to require people to pass an indoctrination to play on their field, or in their games.

But that being said I think that there should be an association of hosts that set in place common standards and best practices .. which could include the institution of some form of basic indoctrination.. that would be conducted at "new player days"

Its easy to go overboard here... because this is a polarizing issue .. on one side are the "its just a game .. who cares about standards.. it's not like its a real gun.. " people.. on the other there are the" we need to have hard to achieve standards and testing.. these things need to be treated exactly like real guns" people.

I tend more towards the more regulation.. and standards.. but this has to be tempered with the acknowledgement that there are all kinds of people who get involved in this activity. We don't want to become so rigid that only hard core militaryphiles can get through.. but we don't want to be so loose as to let total gits in either.

When I started TTAC3 I required new players to take my ATQ1 course.. it was waived for people with a season of AS under their belts and for anyone with a PAL and for anyone with military or police experience. I was running that course every month for a year the first year .. then it dropped to quarterly .. and now I don't do it often because TTAC3 has built a solid cadre of regulars that bring new people in by referral and see that they are prepped and ready before they get there.

I think I will start doing it more regularly again..

So really... maybe when I spoke of "national Standards" I think that we may have our best effect by regulating the hosts .. and making sure people that host are prepped and ready to do the whole job .. and not just the fun bits.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:58   #347
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Originally Posted by shiftsup View Post
One thing I am doing to make new players more aware of what is expected is renting out an affordable package.

I offer to rent out a black gun aeg and gbb pistol package with multiple low cap mags for the AEG. I even supply the bb's and propane. All for less than the price of a case of beer.

This allows a new player to play skirmishes at the local field for $60 for the day or evening.

During the time I spend with the rental player I would mention safety and what's expected. Since the new player is using my table space to get bb's and propane I do have the chance to make game related conversation.

If the new player ends up being a jerk I simply won't re-rent to them.

I hardly make money off of this. Financially, it's basically a break even deal. I get to play for "free" and a new player gets to do more than run around with an AEG with a hi cap mag. And hopefully they learn something.
This is one person's approach and a good one.. not scaleable though.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 11:46   #348
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Old August 11th, 2009, 11:51   #349
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I think some giude lines need to be posted up as to what a game host responsibilitys are and what it means to host an airsoft game and why a game host is needed.

I feel alot of peeps just don't know how to host games properly or just was never tolled how to do so from the older players. At least that seems what happen here in k-town.

So the meaning of game host is lost here do the fact that no one knows what is expected of them.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 12:02   #350
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Originally Posted by zone 69 View Post
I think some giude lines need to be posted up as to what a game host responsibilitys are and what it means to host an airsoft game and why a game host is needed.

I feel alot of peeps just don't know how to host games properly or just was never tolled how to do so from the older players. At least that seems what happen here in k-town.

So the meaning of game host is lost here do the fact that no one knows what is expected of them.
the point exactly...

the "Vets" pull back.. go private .. and there is a vacume .. and people that don't know how to or what to do end up hosting..

Anyway... I think this thread has run its course..

Here is my take in general.

Some support for indoctrination of new players.. but not a critical mass to move forward- "serious indioctrination" should be left to teams and specific owners / hosts if they want to implement it.

pretty much universal support for more "new player days"

an acknowledgement that some people that are hosting games probably are not really ready to do so without some more guidance.

Clear recognition that shunning new players.. regardless of what they are armed with or geared like is a failing strategy ... because they are here and want to participate.. better to help than to hinder.


for me this is what I am going to do..

1. start up the ATQ1 course again and run it more regular.

2.Once I get FTF going again.. run 2 New player days a season.. one in May and another in August

3. Ill write a "guide to hosting AS games" manual and make it available to anyone who wants it.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 12:15   #351
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Hosts

Good point Brian,

I had not thought about that, we have a dedicated field the owner puts a lot of work on. So we have also done a lot of work on the safety and field rules. It had not occurred to me that someone would host games without doing the basics setting up a safe area and having a safety briefing.

Perhaps the simplest place to start would be to get a group of dedicated field owners to write up guide lines for hosting games. Including a basic safety briefing, so idea about FPS limits and engagement ranges etc. I say dedicated field owners as they have the most to lose from unsafe practices and stupidity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
Excellent post, thank you,

in my opinion... some of the reasons we are dealing with issues regarding safety standards and behavior on the field is because people who are 3 months into the activity are Hosting games.. in some cases the "host" does not have a strong grip on standards .. and does not know how to address problems and tHey get out of hand.

There are 2 possible approaches here...

1.regulate the players and educate and enforce up front.. as some have said , force players to jump thhrough hoops to get in.

2.Regulate the hosts and make sure people who are hosting games are capable and willing to do everything necessary.

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Old August 11th, 2009, 12:25   #352
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What happened to all the ideas from the Round Table for hosts at Tac '08?
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Old August 11th, 2009, 12:31   #353
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What happened to all the ideas from the Round Table for hosts at Tac '08?
talk is cheap ... no action was taken by anyone.. and I have not had the time to do anything
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Old August 11th, 2009, 13:10   #354
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I think the idea of a 4 hour MANDATORY Cert. course while well meaning is ridiculous. I have put my time into better my community but I would NEVER have bothered with airsoft had some SELF APPOINTED regulatory body tried that crap. Quite honestly people it comes down to mentoring.

I have a couple of observations for hosts. I think their jobs are quite difficult and often unappreciated. That being said some times I think more time could be spent on the safety meetings. I can understand why things get rushed some times you may have 30 established players and only 3 new ones, and the established ones have heard the same speech many many times. I think though for the most part just taking the time to do it right would make all the difference in the world. If that means you have to go back to kindergarden and send people home for talking during the brief?? so be it.

I would like to see that a FIRST time player need to be at game say 30 min early to get some info crammed down their throat and safety gone over incase the brief is rushed.

Lets face it almost all of us who try and do more for our communities than just show up to play are volunteers. We dont make money, if we are lucky we make a friend. I read alot of this comes from GTA/Ont, you may want to try out your cert coarse, but my suggestion would to try it on a volunteer basis with some new faces then once its all done get some feedback and bring it to discussion.

I dont know if the problems are more pronounced out east or not but west coast we from what I have seen dont have the same degree of total asshats you do. Is that because we have some players who go well out of thier way to mentor?? I would like to think so.

Be apart of the solution grab a nub for your fireteam next game.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 13:17   #355
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Originally Posted by zone 69 View Post
I think some giude lines need to be posted up as to what a game host responsibilitys are and what it means to host an airsoft game and why a game host is needed.

I feel alot of peeps just don't know how to host games properly or just was never tolled how to do so from the older players. At least that seems what happen here in k-town.

So the meaning of game host is lost here do the fact that no one knows what is expected of them.
sadly, Ive seen some hosts not knowing what to do but what's worse is that they don't know how to be a leader.

if noobs are to host a game, maybe a few of the experienced/regular hosts could put together a brief outline/guide of the ins and outs of a hosting a game from, booking the field and posting the thread to doing the safety briefing (regardless if there are new people attending) and cleaning up afterward.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 13:28   #356
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Originally Posted by SockMonkey View Post
I think the idea of a 4 hour MANDATORY Cert. course while well meaning is ridiculous. SNIP

I would like to see that a FIRST time player need to be at game say 30 min early to get some info crammed down their throat and safety gone over incase the brief is rushed.

I read alot of this comes from GTA/Ont, you may want to try out your cert coarse, but my suggestion would to try it on a volunteer basis with some new faces then once its all done get some feedback and bring it to discussion.

.
Not sure where this 4hour course thing came from...

30 minutes early for new players is a good idea.

I have already done intro-courses on a volunteer basis ,, been doing them for 4 years now.. Feedback is always positive.. and participants are appreciative.

it works. pretty much eliminates a lot of the first time player mistakes.. dispells misconceptions..and gives new players a solid foundation to start from.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 13:53   #357
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Originally Posted by HGI View Post
^^
I don't think you could set a price on it since it would very from field to field, some field owners are more greedy than others. Thought it shouldn't cost anything, you shouldn't have to pay to be told how to play a sport.
Being taught how to play may involve actually playing the game, which may become something that costs money to owners/organizers.

I suggested this standardized training course a couple of pages back, and it would be great to do if people in each province took up the responsibility to do it. It's a matter of taking the mentoring principles to a much larger scale that become more public. This can help Airsoft as a whole, not just ASC.

However, a big issue in this idea is the whole self-appointed aspect of it. Why should you be the one who's teaching these people? I can see the whole "You may be an airsoft player, but I'm in a real army and I'm better than you" bullshit that would eventually be created simply because a large amount of people would want to contribute and that's simply not possible.

If this idea is to be a standardized one, it needs to be:
o Feasible
o Inexpensive of free
o Very short, so as not to create the undesired effect of actually pushing back interested recruits
o BE NEWBIE-FRIENDLY
A great way to evade the whole self-proclamation issue is to hold simple elections all over ASC. People with the experience and respect are bound to receive votes. And in time, more communities will be created and private coaching from one staff to an aspiring staff may be offered -- kind of like an officer course. You'd have to become a player certified by the ASC as able to give these "standard courses" (which of course, would have to be standard all over Canada).

As for the content, either ASC staff would have to put some time into that, or the whole community would have to contribute to a "course pack" which would later be voted on again by the community. If it passes, then a majority of players would agree that it is content that new people should learn, and this content would become standardized all over Canada -- that way everybody learns the same stuff, and there is no confusion or training scars.

By now, you must think "holy shit, it's a good idea but it's a big project!" Yes, but that's the price to pay if you don't want Airsoft to be restricted to private mentoring and vets-bitching-at-newbies scandals.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 13:56   #358
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Newb training newbs who then become hosts

Ok, I can see that trend happening:

"Newb training newbs who then become hosts"

THAT I have seen before.

Brian said:
Quote:
some of the reasons we are dealing with issues regarding safety standards and behavior on the field is because people who are 3 months into the activity are Hosting games.. in some cases the "host" does not have a strong grip on standards .. and does not know how to address problems and tHey get out of hand.
Thank you Brian, I think you hit the nail on the head...I will go farther with
"There are no bad players, simply bad hosts"

Ok, not exactly true but the principle rings true"

I think the concept of helping hosts be better prepared is an EXCELLENT preventative measure to stopping in game idiocy, and the creation of dangerous situations to other players.

The REASON I like this is that I myself am guilty of 3 months in and then hosting (well...more like 9 months but winter dont count) and on reflection found myself reading a LOT of After Action Reports and initial game writeups to get a feel for HOW successful AS games are organized.

The info on how to be a good host is NOT easy to access, and certainly could be codified into a standard that new hosts can build on.

Again, other combat sports benifit GREATLY by documented standards for gameplay, event management, dispute settlement and Airsoft could as well.

Change has to happen at the top....not at the bottom, and as far as I can tell the current organization of AS is HOST>Player...with ASC trying to squeeze in somehow to assist.

Airsoft in canada right now is just a bunch of hosted games with hosts, and players, with occasional flashes of clubs in between provinces. No other structure exists. And while clubs TRY and provide some standards, nothing exists for the REAL head of AS, which is the game/field host.

Last edited by Mikhail; August 11th, 2009 at 14:00..
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Old August 11th, 2009, 13:58   #359
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You know, ASC people could create a safety video and ASC could just slap it on the front page and on the forum index, where everybody sees it... I'm talking a video rulebook for both the new player and new host.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 14:32   #360
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I think a thread should be made up where the experienced hosts could post there input on how to be a good host and discuss a simple layout for giude lines on how to be a good responsible airsoft host.
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