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See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

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Old August 10th, 2009, 18:07   #301
HGI
 
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Originally Posted by Doombringer View Post
There is this kind of certification for Rock Climbing, you need to take a 1-2 hour class, they show you all the safety rules, normal procedures, how to operate a belayer, etc... and then, you need to come back and show them that you retained the information by climbing once and your partner does the same and, if you do all of it safely with no external help, you get a card. You can't climb without your card and it's a 1-time thing. There is no canadian law about that, the climbing centers just requires it for their insurances.
Funny, I actually volunteer at a rock climbing gym and have my belay card, your right but again you are wrong. Your actually not required at all what so ever to do anything you said, you can go into any climbing gym and bolder with out a harness or you can have someone with a belay status belay you but you can not belay another person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle
Hmm... what about, rock climbing, sky diving, scuba diving, auto racing, Motorcycle racing, Target shooting

all of these sports have mandatory regulated indoctrination courses before you can do it.

Have you ever wondered why?
All of those sports, kept for rock climbing(cause you actually don't need to) but all the others you listed have a extreme high risk of death to yourself or to a bystander. Where airsoft, only minor injures occur and very unlikly dose someone actually lose a eye (to be honest in all my years in this sport I've never actually heard or read of someone losing a eye or dieing).

I know this is really off topic but Scuba diving actually dose not require a mandatory regulated indoctrination course unless it's below a certain depth, I've had a 20min sit down and got handed the gear and off we went in 15meters of water.

You guys are really going overbored with this, really, do 14 year olds that goto the paintball field for their birthday have to show up a few days before hand to take a course? The risk in airsoft vrs paintball are very similar if not paintball has a higher risk rate. If filtering out the complete idiots is what your trying to do then just let them show up then have the game admins issue them a warning or kick them off the field. No need to have people jump threw hoops just to play airsoft.

*Edit*
Just wanted to point out what Mikhail said,
There's no reason why a 15-20min safty/rules/risk meeting before any game shouldn't happen, heck I was a 1st aid attendant for the rigs up in northen alberta and every morning we would spend 30min going over what the risk were and so so and in my full 12 month of being there I handed out maybe 5 bandaids. If tailgate meetings are not happening before games then the field host or game admin isn't taking time or their job very seriously.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 18:15   #302
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Funny, I actually volunteer at a rock climbing gym and have my belay card, your right but again you are wrong. Your actually not required at all what so ever to do anything you said, you can go into any climbing gym and bolder with out a harness or you can have someone with a belay status belay you but you can not belay another person.



All of those sports, kept for rock climbing(cause you actually don't need to) but all the others you listed have a extreme high risk of death to yourself or to a bystander. Where airsoft, only minor injures occur and very unlikly dose someone actually lose a eye (to be honest in all my years in this sport I've never actually heard or read of someone losing a eye or dieing).

I know this is really off topic but Scuba diving actually dose not require a mandatory regulated indoctrination course unless it's below a certain depth, I've had a 20min sit down and got handed the gear and off we went in 15meters of water.

You guys are really going overbored with this, really, do 14 year olds that goto the paintball field for their birthday have to show up a few days before hand to take a course? The risk in airsoft vrs paintball are very similar if not paintball has a higher risk rate. If filtering out the complete idiots is what your trying to do then just let them show up then have the game admins issue them a warning or kick them off the field. No need to have people jump threw hoops just to play airsoft.

In other places .. they have "non sanctioned events" where it's open and anyone can come.. you don't need a course..

other events require the completion of the course..

the whole point is to have a few hoops to jump through to exclude the people that could not be bothered to jump through them.. as it is very likely these same people would not be bothered with following the rules or respecting other players .. or taking the time to listen or learn..

The 14 years olds at a birthday party is an apt comparison.. as there are lots of new players that behave like they are 14year olds at a birthday party.. and that is kinda the whole point here..

Would it note be better to not have to issue warnings or kick idiots of the field ... if there were fewer idiots .. because we took some action to stop them from getting to the field in the first place?
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Old August 10th, 2009, 18:16   #303
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Airsoft has been dead a long time IMO..... something like 3 years ago... It's just on life support until they pull the plug and it goes back to the criminal underground... because owning a real airsoft gun is a criminal offence in canada like it or not....
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Old August 10th, 2009, 18:26   #304
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Is this Video Publicly available/for sale. I would love to have something like this at our fields disposal.
you know ex you could make one yourself! all local will support you !!
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Old August 10th, 2009, 18:29   #305
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Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
snip

the whole point is to have a few hoops to jump through to exclude the people that could not be bothered to jump through them.. as it is very likely these same people would not be bothered with following the rules or respecting other players .. or taking the time to listen or learn..

snip

Would it note be better to not have to issue warnings or kick idiots of the field ... if there were fewer idiots .. because we took some action to stop them from getting to the field in the first place?
This does sound like the crux of it. And when stated this way is hard to not see the point.

This sounds like (correct me if I am mistaken) a problem that happens in larger population centers, less so than smaller rural areas. I think that if I as a field owner / host in my smaller rural area, started REQUIRING a certification, the little bit of flow AS new folks that trickle in would instantly dry up.

I do suspect that Vancouver area has problems similiar to what is described at games in Toronto, and as someone who HAS played drop in combat sports in large pop centers, I hear you completly.

This does start to feel like the argument for gun registration...wherein the problems caused by 'idiots' in the city, induce rules that just don't fit for the rest of the province. (ie gang/crime problems means now I am (potentially) a criminal for keeping my 303 to protect my family against cougar/bear.)

With that fairly recent experiance (the ill fitting gun legislation) I would suggest that a one size fits all approach would be inappropriate.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 18:53   #306
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Originally Posted by Duckman View Post
how many games have you been to that the host has the time to actually go over an attendance list? they shoudlnt have to. how many times have there been people not sign up and just show up? i'm not condemning those that just show up cus they cant commit simply because they just dont know until a few hours before if they can actually show or not but i woudlnt expect a host to have to resort to identifying everyone that shows up at a field. that'd be insane.

short of policing every persona at everygame i dont see how this would weed out the negative element other than booting them WHEN they get caught doing someting stupid. it'd be a never ending process for the hosts.
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...implies that all new people would WANT to learn and be spoken to an treated as a newbie. ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
As hosts we should be doing a better job of knowing who is on the field and what their experience level is.. its in our best interest to know.

If you had to show ID when you register and this gets matched to the sign in sheet ... its not hard to confirm status.
I've only run CQB a couple of times. They are confirmed sign up games only...I either personally know everyone that is coming, or they are vouched for by someone I know. It works. 30 people are a real handful...when it hits that number I should be drafting someone(s) to help.

I'd be pretty easy to keep a master list of those who are "Yea" and those who are "Nay". These events are closer knit and less frequent...but entirely manageable.

Each time a newb has shown up, their sponsor is tied to them...not just their first time, but everytime until they're comfortable (and others are comfortable with them). The sponsors aren't just guys who give their buddy a lift to the game...they're switched on about safety and conduct in play.

When newbs know what those expectations are...and that they're going to be under intense scrutiny by not only their sponsor or the host, but every player there...it hits home pretty quick (their litterally quaking in their boots...and then you gently remind them not to fiddle with the safety ). The ones that want to get through it...for those who don't want that, the message is still there...they just don't come back.

These guys have either shown up with next to nothing (I know because I lend out alot of gear/stuff)...or the Cansoft half breeds. It's not the tool...it's the guy holding it.

Real cap load out (mids/lows loaded short is fine) is in play everytime. Hicap guys just don't make it out...or we loan them a load out worth of mags. There hasn't been any "abuse" of borrowing all the time...and I suspect that persons who are habitually unprepared will feel intense pressure to sort themselves out for the next one.

Some of the best games (mil-sims at FTF most notably) have been where there's the checkin list. Check in, pay fee, chrony...good to go. They don't all happen like that, but they should. There's ZERO f*cking around...and that's an great expectation to start out with from minute 1.

Accidents happen, poor judgement happens to the best of us in the heat of battle...but it should be the exception, not the theme of the night.

NOW...mind you...when I'm forking over $35 to not even shoot anything, that kind of sucks. But I don't mind doing it if it's the best thing to do for 20+ other guys. However...when I go to a mil-sim to participate...I'd prefer not being saddled with a 1st timer (depends heavily on the individual though). I don't mind watching over someone while in play at less serious games/skirmishes though...that's the opportune time to do so.

It's up to the hosts to set the bar for the game and ensure that it meets whatever expectations are set. If it's a loose, walk-on, Johny come as you are type game...that's what you're going to get.

Tys
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Old August 10th, 2009, 21:07   #307
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So the easiest way with new ASC members going forward, in order to get Age Verified, they must attend a course, past several written and practical examinations, and if required a probationary period.

Yes I do realize that sounds like a great deal. But if you truly want to stop bad behaviours, you need to train to reduce / eliminate them.

There is no such thing as an accident with a firearm.

The largest difficulty would be coming up with a common syllabus, common testing and scoring.

Thus if your AV status is refused, you know exactly why. You need to work on your safety skills. Why would you want to AV someone that is unsafe?

Thus probably creating a new below avatar tag of "Mentor" or "Trainer" or such, so those that are qualified to teach it can be found.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 21:27   #308
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Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney View Post
So the easiest way with new ASC members going forward, in order to get Age Verified, they must attend a course, past several written and practical examinations, and if required a probationary period.

Yes I do realize that sounds like a great deal. But if you truly want to stop bad behaviours, you need to train to reduce / eliminate them.

There is no such thing as an accident with a firearm.

The largest difficulty would be coming up with a common syllabus, common testing and scoring.

Thus if your AV status is refused, you know exactly why. You need to work on your safety skills. Why would you want to AV someone that is unsafe?

Thus probably creating a new below avatar tag of "Mentor" or "Trainer" or such, so those that are qualified to teach it can be found.
The community of ASC is big enough, that this shouldn't even be remotely hard to do. You figure there are people here who actually own their own field.
So I do entirely agree with Shiney's post.

I think its something that should definitely be looked into, and pushed to happen. If everyone is complaining about how new people are generally blinded when it comes to following rules and safety, then this is probably a better step to solving that problem.
Getting age verified shouldn't just be "Can I see your ID?" clearly that isn't going to cut it anymore with the mentality of some people.
I'm sure it can be worked out, and its probably something that will please the cranky old vets.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 22:09   #309
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But what about if people just wanted to collect them? I wouldn't want to have to go through all this shit just to have an airsoft collection. Getting A'Ved is a big pain in the ass already.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 22:10   #310
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I wouldn't want to have to go through all this shit just to have an airsoft collection. Getting A'Ved is a big pain in the ass already.
Then you don't get them.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 22:14   #311
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Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
Then you don't get them.
Its as simple as that.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 22:17   #312
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Then you don't get them.
That's not your call to make, and there's nothing wrong with the responsible collecting of airsoft guns.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 22:20   #313
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If you want to collect the real steel you need to pay a bag of money take several courses and tests. And then you are regulated to death.

I am not saying I do not want you to own or collect or play with Airsoft Gear.

I am just wanting responsible ownership. People that fully understand the respect the gear deserves, the danger they can place themselves, people around them and the sport in. I do agree with Brian that more efforts need to be made to both formally and informally mentor and develop new players. That we as a community need to create, enforce and follow specific standards.

The best way to ensure people should be considered responsible is a course, you have to take one for Driving, Firearms and other positions of trust or responsibility. Why should this be like any other responsibility of ownership. Look at the UK with there system, when you have to register. Either you want a more open atomsphere, or you choose to stay semi underground.

If you want to be accepted with more legitimacy (regardless of legalities) you will need to accept that standards may be coming. We already Ban people on ASC or from specific events or venues. So we already have an informal set of standards. Lets just make them formal, so they are out in the open. Everyone must follow them.

Yes it will be a pain in the ass. SO WHAT Ultimately nothing will really change. But that the newer players will be better equiped, have more skills sooner and probably make for a better (safer) community.

As for getting AV'd a pain in the ass, what meet someone at an Airsoft Game, or Event or for Coffee?? Give me a break.

So HGI, any comments.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 22:20   #314
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That's not your call to make, and there's nothing wrong with the responsible collecting of airsoft guns.
I never said there was anything wrong with it, nor did I "make a call" on it. I simply pointed out a fact.

It's not like there's an abundant number of ways to get black airsoft guns, and I can't fathom any reason a collector would want a halfbreed.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 22:26   #315
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But what about if people just wanted to collect them? I wouldn't want to have to go through all this shit just to have an airsoft collection. Getting A'Ved is a big pain in the ass already.
Pain in the ass eh, what about the volunteer verifiers that take time out to help lazy people like you gain access to the guns, it's not a pain in the ass for them or is your time more valuable?
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