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Old August 9th, 2009, 17:59   #211
Drake
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Not singling out your post, Crunch, just want to point a few things out for people reading, specially the newcomers.




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Originally Posted by Crunchmeister View Post
Cansoft guns don't mean shit. So where are these "cheap guns" that everyone is moaning about. I'd love to see them. When I look at these Cansoft guns, I see markups that are still 200-300%, just like the evil, illegal black guns.
Because they're "Canadian Legal" (see below)




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There is a larger proliferation of guns now with cansoft because people are legally permitted to import and sell them. It makes them more accessible to the general public.
But despite this alleged legal status, we still have to go through Canadian Retailers for them. For one, the halfbreed guns aren't available on the international market. So once again Canadian Retailers have managed to build a monopoly.

This really means nothing to the end consumer: no player ever got in legal trouble for owning, or buying from a Canadian Retailer (even after APEC/Peter Kang went down and investigators started looking up past customers). So really, the halfbreed guns only protect people importing. Part of the previous markup (on black guns) took into account the risk involved in bringing black guns into the country: I'm left wondering what the markup covers now? Specially when half the guns on the market are being bought wholesale from CAS.

Of course, this whole "Canadian Legal" bit is utter bullshit as well: the laws haven't changed in any way, bill C68 hasn't been modified or amended to take clearsoft or halfbreeds into account. The rules in the books are the same as they were before and subject to interpretation by CBSA, an interpretation which could change at any time without notice. Clear guns don't make it into Quebec (international imports) and word is Quebec's CFO has already taken a stand against clear guns because the receivers can be easily painted black.

The real problem is there's a lot of bullshit and misinformation going around, often spread by people who stand to gain from it. Players need to get informed and get their heads out of their asses, and start making notice of what's actually going on.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 18:11   #212
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Of course, this whole "Canadian Legal" bit is utter bullshit as well: the laws haven't changed in any way, bill C68 hasn't been modified or amended to take clearsoft or halfbreeds into account.
The rules required no changes to make a determination on transparent receivers. By definition, the clear receivers are a move to adapt to the standing law, not the other way around. The clear receivers have been ok since day one of C-68. Just because it took the market years to reach the point where they are a valid product does not mean the law itself is at odds with them.

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The rules in the books are the same as they were before and subject to interpretation by CBSA, an interpretation which could change at any time without notice.
The only change on clear to have occurred on clear guns are the KJW Hi-Capa, and that was because it was an obvious technical mistake (to us, which we openly talked about here) even from the beginning. If CBSA and the RCMP were interested in reversing the rulings on all clear KJW GBBs, they would have done along with the Hi-Capas.

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Clear guns don't make it into Quebec (international imports) and word is Quebec's CFO has already taken a stand against clear guns because the receivers can be easily painted black.
The individual authority of the CFOs are somewhat overrated.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 18:22   #213
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I made sure I read all 12 pages before posting my thoughts and frankly I'm quite SHOCKED that a lot of you have such close-minded mentality when it comes to having OTHER people joining a sport/hobby. Sure you can make it a total hardcore milsim hobby but NOBODY EVER SAID AIRSOFT WAS CREATED FOR THAT PURPOSE ONLY.

Let me summarize to the best of my ability on some of your concerns and why I think it is not COMPLETELY the fault of the new players:

Objection 1: New people have no real concept of the commitment that may be required to "properly" do milsim-type games


Well, that's why they are new, isn't it? Please think back, whether it's 5, 10, or 15 years ago when you guys first started - did you know everything and owned all the gear that's necessary to play it properly? I DOUBT IT.

New players need to be taught the rules, the etiquettes, the proper attires, etc etc for playing this sport. You can research all you want on the internet but the best training comes from veterans. If you want newbies to play "properly", then YOU need to train them properly at YOUR game. Teach them the rules, set up restrictions on what guns are allowed, lay out guidelines in clothing requirements, etc. If nothing is enforced then of course you will see gang-bangers showing up with clearsoft guns with jeans and a baseball cap.

You set the rules, enforce them, and you will get your "quality" players. The bad ones will naturally get weeded out if proper rules are set in place at your local games. There is a learning process for all hobbies and this one is no different. Nobody wants to see irresponsible and immarture players at games and ruining it for everyone but with more people joining this hobby there are bound to be some bad seeds in the group.

Objection 2: ClearSoft/CanSoft guns are not worthy and should not be used or even mentioned on this forum


Why? Because they are cheap and have clear/tinited lowers? Please think about the fact that newer players DO NOT HAVE ACCESS to some of the higher end guns, or at least not to easily purchasable all-black all-metal guns that you vets already have. Also, why should there be a monetary limit set on a hobby that is meant for ANYONE that wishes to participate? I'm sorry but no one has the right to tell me how much money I should spend on my gun before I can have fun with it. You may have a budget of $5,000 on gear but sorry to tell you that not everyone has the same amount of disposable income as you do. That is the beauty of a hobby - you spend as much/as little as you can possibly afford to get the most return in your investment. Newbies should do the best they can to make sure their equipment can stand up to the abuse on the field but you (veterans) should not judge a player's ability to game, based on what he can or cannot afford to buy.

Think of it this way, do you tell people to stop riding bicycles because they bought their cheap bikes for $100 from Canadian Tire, instead of your $2500 road race bike that you think is somehow more worthy to be ridden on public roads? They are the ones that will look silly during a road race but that is THEIR problem - they probably know that they won't win against guys with better gear but the bottom line is that they just want to have fun like everyone else and may not necessarily want to buy a $2500 bike.

This is an OPEN hobby - the elitist attitude should not be perpetuated (as seen in this particular thread). Just because you admit that you are an elitist doesn't automatically make it okay to discriminate against newbies. This attitude is only harmful to the hobby as you will see in the following point.


Objection 3: The "Get out of my hobby" comment


I was quite shocked to see a comment like that being posted, let along a few other members that acutally agreed with it. You do not OWN this hobby/sport and anyone that wishes to participate should not be discriminated against because they have a different view than yours. I have many hobbies that are expensive (photography, cars, speedskating) and I have NEVER seen a comment like that in any of those hobby forums. I cannot believe someone acutally said that with a straight face... A comment like that to newbies like myself is utterly offensive and hurtful.

This is the first hobby that I picked up that made me feel un-welcomed, belittled, and un-wanted simply because I am new to it. If you guys really want quality players to stick around and grow into it you should perhaps start thinking about changing your own attitude and try to be more open-minded.

Like BloodSport said - share the fun with others (that are of age/18+), that's the bottom line.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 18:35   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I'm left wondering what the markup covers now? Specially when half the guns on the market are being bought wholesale from CAS.
It's not really the retailer's fault: CAS charges their wholesale price which already includes a large markup, and retailers have to put their own markup on the guns (which is not a whole lot), otherwise they wouldn't be in business.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 18:53   #215
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It's not really the retailer's fault: CAS charges their wholesale price which already includes a large markup, and retailers have to put their own markup on the guns (which is not a whole lot), otherwise they wouldn't be in business.
I concur, it is true normal retailer's margin is not as high as CAS's margin of course but thats what happens with a monopoly and everyone knows monopolys tend to lead torwards price ceilings and at times, inefficiencies.

One thing you have to admit sole distribution rights is not cheap so kudos to them for the money to buy it.

But don't worry all is not lost for approx $500,000 you can get Sole distribution rights for Classic Army yay!
Note - That amount may be inaccurate in case a sales man mistaken the figures
**Source: My friend from Big Shark Airsoft (Another startup Cleartailer)
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Old August 9th, 2009, 19:17   #216
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Excellent! Ditto.

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Originally Posted by .JET View Post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonjour43ma View Post


Objection 3: The "Get out of my hobby" comment*


I was quite shocked to see a comment like that being posted, let along a few other members that acutally agreed with it. You do not OWN this hobby/sport and anyone that wishes to participate should not be discriminated against because they have a different view than yours. I have many hobbies that are expensive (photography, cars, speedskating) and I have NEVER seen a comment like that in any of those hobby forums. I cannot believe someone acutally said that with a straight face... A comment like that to newbies like myself is utterly offensive and hurtful.

This is the first hobby that I picked up that made me feel un-welcomed, belittled, and un-wanted simply because I am new to it. If you guys really want quality players to stick around and grow into it you should perhaps start thinking about changing your own attitude and try to be more open-minded.
*This is the one that pushed my buttons and is still making my blood boil, a calmer head expressed the sentiment extremely well.

& you don't frell with a man's sig!
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Old August 9th, 2009, 19:29   #217
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I have to say even though there has been allot of crap flinging in this thread I learned allot. It has opened my eye's and a few other Vets as well in the Ottawa Area. So much so we have decided to hold a Noob day in the very near future. We have also decided to start a "good will" box at the field. All of us that have been around awhile have loads of extra gear that really isn't saleable so why not give it to someone that can get a season or two out of it. If you are new and can't afford gear we will be able to help out by providing maybe a pair of boots or a set of bdu's to help you get going. Despites some people finger pointing that some of us are Elitist and do more damage than good hopefully something like this can close the gap a bit.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 19:42   #218
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A thank you to you and your ilks, ex.

Despite both fair and unfair reservations about newbies, I hope we remember the best way to deal with newbies is to turn them into experienced players. That way we sustain the community and gain even more people able to help educate newbies.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 19:43   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatt13 View Post

i agree get the hell out of my sport,

alt.sport.airsoft
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Old August 9th, 2009, 20:06   #220
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I have no issue with newbies. I have issue with snot-nosed douchebag newbies.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 20:26   #221
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We were all noobs at some point. Some of us were better noobs than others. If everyone just bothered doing some research and using ASC the way it was intended, 75% of noob problems would be non-existent.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 20:44   #222
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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
A thank you to you and your ilks, ex.

Despite both fair and unfair reservations about newbies, I hope we remember the best way to deal with newbies is to turn them into experienced players. That way we sustain the community and gain even more people able to help educate newbies.
this mean you're gunna come to my noob day saint? lol
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Old August 9th, 2009, 21:24   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchmeister View Post
Cansoft guns don't mean shit. So where are these "cheap guns" that everyone is moaning about. I'd love to see them. When I look at these Cansoft guns, I see markups that are still 200-300%, just like the evil, illegal black guns. There are no cheap guns. There are only more easily accessible guns that are of significantly higher quality than previous all clear alternatives that were both cheap and total garbage. Cheap Aftermath, Crosman and Tactical Force clear garbage has been readily available long before the higher end cansoft guns have. They didn't kill airsoft before. Why do they now? ICS and G&G make higher quality guns that are good starting platforms for new players, and they're completely legal. Nothing wrong with that.

2 years ago when I started, I heard the same crew pissing and moaning that "cheap" China clones were the death of airsoft. Didn't happen then, and it certainly didn't dilute airsoft in any way that I could perceive. Guns were still ridiculously expensive and just as hard to get as the "good stuff", and as ridiculously overpriced (in terms of markup). It just allowed someone with a lower starting budget to get a halfway decent starter gun without having to sell their ass on a street corner to get it. And that's the market that these cansoft guns are now filling.

There is a larger proliferation of guns now with cansoft because people are legally permitted to import and sell them. It makes them more accessible to the general public. There are now an assload of online sources, as well as brick & mortar stores where one can walk in and buy these cansoft guns. They're still horribly overpriced because of a few importers that don't give 2 shits about the airsoft community, but rather to line their own pockets, decided to corner the market with certain brands, and have minimum pricing agreements in place with their retailers to fix the prices to maximize their profits. But they're now readily available.

And this brings me to where I think a big part of the problem lies here on ASC. ASC has become about turning a healthy profit now rather than to bettering the AS community. They'll let anyone who can fork out the retailer fee sell whatever the fuck they want in the classifieds, including the lowest end crapsoft on the market. A couple of years ago, these same dealers would have been shown the door so fast their heads would be spinning. Now as long as they can pay the retailer fee, they have no restrictions. That basically took what was a bar set high and removed it completely in the name of profit. The AV system is now MEANINGLESS when it comes to the retailer section. It serves no purpose whatsoever. Everything that is sold in the AV retailer section can easily and readily be purchased online from a variety of other (or the same) sources right here in Canada for the same price. For the private sales, AV still has value, but for the retailers, it means zip and just serves to legitimize someone selling crapsoft.

As was mentioned repeatedly by the wiser, more level-headed vets, the tool doesn't make the player. A shit player with a PTW will be as shitty as a shit player with a Kraken. A good player with a well maintened and tweaked Kraken will still own a shitty player with a PTW. Blaming the decline of the sport on the tool is retarded. I can show up at a game with a well painted G&G Cansoft gun, and it will make absolutely no difference in terms of looks or my performance as a player. Blaming clear plastic is rather short-sighted. It's more about the attitude and quality of the players than it is about the gun they're shooting. I've played with more total dickheads with high end guns far more often than I have with noobs with low end guns and are willing to learn and get into the game.

Anyway, that's just my rant. As you can tell, I went from spending my days here on ASC to now only occasionally visiting. A combination of the commercialization of ASC, the flame-fests, and noob-on-noob Q&A sessions that permeate the board just turned me off totally. This place went from being a great resource for players to becoming a place that bends over backwards to catering to the crapsoft kiddies. And at the other end of the scale, we have the elitist pricks who will spit at and belittle anyone who isn't sporting a $4000 gun loaded with all real steel accessories. You guys are equally responsible for ruining this place as the profit-oriented management and the kiddie crapsoft noobs are.
+1 I was going to start a post about lipo and hicaps turning airsoft into speedball but someone beat me to it.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 21:30   #224
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+1 I was going to start a post about lipo and hicaps turning airsoft into speedball but someone beat me to it.
T_T But on semi, lipo's are great. Better reaction times, a lot less like firing a bow and arrow...
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Old August 9th, 2009, 21:35   #225
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+1 I was going to start a post about lipo and hicaps turning airsoft into speedball but someone beat me to it.
This is so true. When I first started playing airsoft lowcaps/midcaps were the norm. In fact, most games didn't even allow hicaps. It was "if you don't have anything but, ask to borrow some magazines".

However, the last few games I've been to it's been getting more and more difficult to compete simply for the reason that more and more people are using hi-caps. In one game I played recently some opponents went through multiple hi-caps in a short skirmish -you can't compete with that using lowcaps. And the "hi-caps are OK if you use short controlled bursts" attitude is bullshit. Short controlled bursts are just as bad as full auto when you can do 30 of them in quick succession and anyone not using hi-caps can only do five or six. It's a complete bitch when you carry 300 rounds in six magazines and some opponents carry 300 rounds in each of their six hi-caps. And a note, most of these people aren't n00bs. They're people who have been playing for several years at least.

I don't know.. maybe I should be looking more at playing milsim instead of skirmishing. There used to be skirmish games that enforced ammo loadouts and camo requirements. It seems more and more the only games that do that are hardcore milsim events. Sad.

/bitching
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