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See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

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Old August 8th, 2009, 15:27   #166
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Originally Posted by Gridlock View Post
I understand fully the issues and concerns raised here. I have my own as well.

I'm an entirely new player. I've not been to a game yet, though that's happening sooner rather than later. Given the tough place I am in with money right now, I'm assuming it's perfectly reasonable to go to a game (with prior notice mind you) in jeans, a hoodie, and ask to borrow someone's gun (also with prior notice). It lets me learn the game, learn proper safety, and gives me a taste for the game. If I love it, which I'm assuming I will, then I can go full-bore into it and get fully kitted out. If I don't, no harm, you'll never hear from me again.

My question is, if I show up to a game without full kit but with a learning attitude and proper respect for all rules and safety, will I still get looked down on purely for not having proper kit?

EDIT: mcguyver answered it pretty well.
We'll Give you a set of Bdu's for the day and rent you a gun too...it's not that we don't want to. You will not be looked down upon at all, new players will always be welcome. If you truly show up with a willingness to learn and have a good head on your shoulders you'll fit right in.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 15:53   #167
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The only thing people really hate is when players come and just don't want to play by the rules set in place by whoever. That absoloutley rots me. Like we play a certain way and if you don't like it too bad, it's not your decision.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 16:37   #168
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Cool, drama. Makes life worth living for everyone.

I think a big problem that hurt "oldschool" airsoft in Canada (Ont. at least) has been the invention and common use of the internet.

wtf shrike? you say. The people that I first played with (like Scarecrow described, in '04 for me) ALLOWED you to attend a game and you were watched. And approached to join teams. It was all part of the social aspect of the underground sport. I fantasized about a sport like this all my life so finding it I was like a kid in the candy store. I wanted to jump in and belong. I FOUND OTHER NORMAL (sort of) PEOPLE WHO LIKE PLAYING WITH GUNS AND TACTICS!! I was on ASC (and have been since) all the time, it's the first time I ever got involed with a community online. I was a posting noob too. Treadstone and KD were the funniest people I had ever read and I developed man crushes. I musta freaked em out cause Tready BLASTED me in a pm about no one wanting me here. I still don't know if that asshole was joking or not at the time. I was mortified that I had offended this community that I wanted to be a part of and posted a public appology for whatever damage I had done (probably posting "lol" after every kd or tready post) Did I mention they are dicks?

back to my point, Scarecrow or Morb or someone was talking about back in the day day, when some ooooold guy named Poncho had to call people on a weekend and have a telephone chain or something to arrange games. ON TEH FONE!! That intimacy creates a tribe (teams) that dissolved into many other tribes. Change happened. Now with the internet, little Johnny Rottenass can log in anywhere and add to the fray on this asc tribe.

I have no answers, just wanted to blame the internet for something.
Be warned, disjointed thoughts lie ahead...

That community and spirit can still exist, even with the internet. One thing I had noticed the last few times I was out is that everyon clumps into their own little groups. There has to be a willingness among both the new and old to mingle. Hell I'd say 99% of players are far more approachable now than they were back when Agit would show up with a broken 249 and those hardcore STAT and WP guys would cause people to bail on games just by signing up.

I'd say the best bet (at least for southern Ontario, I'm not sure how the National Capital guys do it) would be to bring back the newb day. Bring back the milsim teams to scirmishes at public fields/events, and bring back the openess. We've all be jaded or abused, be it trying to mentor a team/player who never repaid you, or being misled into having festering anger with other players.

I don't think the death of this sport will be clear AEGs, the death of this sport will come from polarization and isolation. I don't know about you guys, but I miss the days of seeing two major teams go head to head in a scrim with all the new guys watching, seeing two groups really tear eachother up in a connected, fluid, exciting way, and wanting to emulate that...

Anyway, bleh.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 17:21   #169
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Okay good to see this thread started to clean up a bit, I've handed out a few infractions in this one already so please keep it clean.


The main thing that everyone needs to remember about Airsoft is this:

Its a game, play it to have fun, do it safe, but have fun. Share that fun with everyone else and no matter what everyone wins. <- That is all that matters, have fun its a game.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 17:31   #170
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No fun allowed, realism only
Realism is fun.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 18:25   #171
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I made sure I read all 12 pages before posting my thoughts and frankly I'm quite SHOCKED that a lot of you have such close-minded mentality when it comes to having OTHER people joining a sport/hobby. Sure you can make it a total hardcore milsim hobby but NOBODY EVER SAID AIRSOFT WAS CREATED FOR THAT PURPOSE ONLY.

Let me summarize to the best of my ability on some of your concerns and why I think it is not COMPLETELY the fault of the new players:

Objection 1: New people have no real concept of the commitment that may be required to "properly" do milsim-type games


Well, that's why they are new, isn't it? Please think back, whether it's 5, 10, or 15 years ago when you guys first started - did you know everything and owned all the gear that's necessary to play it properly? I DOUBT IT.

New players need to be taught the rules, the etiquettes, the proper attires, etc etc for playing this sport. You can research all you want on the internet but the best training comes from veterans. If you want newbies to play "properly", then YOU need to train them properly at YOUR game. Teach them the rules, set up restrictions on what guns are allowed, lay out guidelines in clothing requirements, etc. If nothing is enforced then of course you will see gang-bangers showing up with clearsoft guns with jeans and a baseball cap.

You set the rules, enforce them, and you will get your "quality" players. The bad ones will naturally get weeded out if proper rules are set in place at your local games. There is a learning process for all hobbies and this one is no different. Nobody wants to see irresponsible and immarture players at games and ruining it for everyone but with more people joining this hobby there are bound to be some bad seeds in the group.

Objection 2: ClearSoft/CanSoft guns are not worthy and should not be used or even mentioned on this forum


Why? Because they are cheap and have clear/tinited lowers? Please think about the fact that newer players DO NOT HAVE ACCESS to some of the higher end guns, or at least not to easily purchasable all-black all-metal guns that you vets already have. Also, why should there be a monetary limit set on a hobby that is meant for ANYONE that wishes to participate? I'm sorry but no one has the right to tell me how much money I should spend on my gun before I can have fun with it. You may have a budget of $5,000 on gear but sorry to tell you that not everyone has the same amount of disposable income as you do. That is the beauty of a hobby - you spend as much/as little as you can possibly afford to get the most return in your investment. Newbies should do the best they can to make sure their equipment can stand up to the abuse on the field but you (veterans) should not judge a player's ability to game, based on what he can or cannot afford to buy.

Think of it this way, do you tell people to stop riding bicycles because they bought their cheap bikes for $100 from Canadian Tire, instead of your $2500 road race bike that you think is somehow more worthy to be ridden on public roads? They are the ones that will look silly during a road race but that is THEIR problem - they probably know that they won't win against guys with better gear but the bottom line is that they just want to have fun like everyone else and may not necessarily want to buy a $2500 bike.

This is an OPEN hobby - the elitist attitude should not be perpetuated (as seen in this particular thread). Just because you admit that you are an elitist doesn't automatically make it okay to discriminate against newbies. This attitude is only harmful to the hobby as you will see in the following point.


Objection 3: The "Get out of my hobby" comment


I was quite shocked to see a comment like that being posted, let along a few other members that acutally agreed with it. You do not OWN this hobby/sport and anyone that wishes to participate should not be discriminated against because they have a different view than yours. I have many hobbies that are expensive (photography, cars, speedskating) and I have NEVER seen a comment like that in any of those hobby forums. I cannot believe someone acutally said that with a straight face... A comment like that to newbies like myself is utterly offensive and hurtful.

This is the first hobby that I picked up that made me feel un-welcomed, belittled, and un-wanted simply because I am new to it. If you guys really want quality players to stick around and grow into it you should perhaps start thinking about changing your own attitude and try to be more open-minded.

Like BloodSport said - share the fun with others (that are of age/18+), that's the bottom line.

Last edited by Bonjour43ma; August 8th, 2009 at 18:34..
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Old August 8th, 2009, 18:40   #172
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Cooler heads will always prevail...the bottom line is we all have to tow the line. Airsoft is not Paint ball and allot of new players come into the sport thinking it is. It's how we deal with them that counts.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 18:42   #173
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Interesting thread to say the least. I wish I could witness this passion and energy at a skirmish or a themed event.

Many of the events seem to be a live version of an ASC thread where everyone has to put in there own $0.02 on how the game is going to be played. What is a good first "AEG" and so on ad nauseum.

I am basically responding to BM's first post.

"Real Airsoft", "Black Guns" or whatever you want to call them are damn hard to get regardless of price. And there's a decent chance that the experience won't be pretty.

Since I joined this board in December 2008 and became AV'd no less than five AV'd only retailers have folded. I have bought off of 3 of them.

I am not going to go into names and details but realising that you might just be out $1K to $5K for a hobby isn't a good feeling at all.

As far as noobs vs. vets go sometimes it seems like the roles have been reversed. I've played with 18 year olds that were decent enough. The young guy that came out to FR on July 28 was cool enough. He had a clear smoked AK and Hi Capa and was ready to play.

I have also played far too many people that have been around this board for years that seem to love the safe zone way too much and have behaved in the field in a way that made me shake my head. Some are just plain rude and unfriendly.

I am not a big fan of clear guns or painted clear guns. I had one and gamed it once. It gathered dust for a few months and then I sold it on here.

The idea of playing with a clear gun just didn't cut it for me.

It might be cool for others. But my guess is that they will be out of the game in a year.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 19:04   #174
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If its possible id like to add my 2 cents :

Well i have been playing for at least 5 years , my first few games were skimishes were i could load up and drink some fluids , i didnt have the gear for the harder milsims so i watched , played with a few vets ( i asked if i could play with them and LISTENED to what they said ) .

I have an several m14's ( tm are perfered myself , having good luck with them . ) 1 kart ebr ( which shoots decent enough , i just did some minor adjustments ) , 2 ics full metal mseries ( minor upgrades - tight bores and 120 springs to shoot 380 to 400 fps . ) . I also have one g&g smoked clear reciever which i have used several times , shoots 360 , upgraded gearbox came with the gun and has a very similar plastic lower reciever to my tm m4 but smoked color . It shoots very well for the cost of the aeg and came in a nice pkg for the starter player .

Ill help anyone who asks questions and shows some initative to learn , airsoft is a close knit comunity and those who are asshats usually dont survive long.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 20:52   #175
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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
If all you are going to do is play scrims at a paintball field, you don't need anything but a gun, hicap mag and some BBs. The rest is all fluff.

If you want to get more serious, or play other types of games, you need it all, you need it immediately, or you become a liability to yourself and other players (unless you are tasked with playing a specific role by the admins).

What Brian has mentioned is a sympton shown in other aspects of society. We all know about tourists. They decide they want to go for a backwoods nature hike, and take a water bottle and garnola bar. They get lost, someone dies, and the survivor bitches about how SAR failed to save them. Sometimes, people expect they should just be able to do what they want, how they want, when they want, everything on their terms. If you are alone in your endeavour, this is fine. When you have to join a community at the bottom of the totem pole, this is totally unacceptable.

If a community has set a minimum standard, it is the responsibility of the new guy to conform, not the responsibility of the community to accomodate. Nor is it the responsibility of the community to mentor. Nobody mentored me, you learn what you need, you get it and get your job done.

This is not an airsoft issue, this is part and parcel of what we allow society to think is acceptable. Years ago when I started in the electrical trade, you bought your own tools, you made sure you had everything you need. What you absolutely did not do is ask your journeyman to borrow his tools, nor did you do any creative or independent thinking. You did what you were told. If you didn't have money for tools, too bad, you sold your mother if you had to. Now, all I hear is whining and complaining about "I can't afford it" or "why can't I borrow your drill, you have 4 of them?"

This whole issue boils down to personal responsibility first, and responsibility to the community you enter second. Mentoring is not a right to be expected by new guys, and it is not the job of vets to mentor. If it occurs, it needs to be treated as a privilege subject to review.

During the Keystone game in 2006, the Red team lost about 1/2 their number throughout the 24 hours to dehydration, injury, exhaustion and disgust at getting their asses handed to them from the game start. Other than injury, the rest is not acceptable in my opinion. Guys showed up with a couple of bottled water and a granola bar to sustain them in a 24hr game at 28 dgrees outside.

There is no shortage of info on this website that anyone can learn all about what they need to do for themselves and their fellow players long before they ever step onto the field. I think Brian's whole point is that guys don't give a shit, show up, do whatever, "if I like it, I like it, if I don't, I don't" attitude with no feeling of personal or community responsibility.

Notice how I didn't mention anything about guns or gear here? This is only a symptom of an underlying problem.
Mcguyver I understand your points and agree with your points about preparedness. However reagardless of how much new players have read their is always things that the vets can and should show them. This is my way of thinking regardless of the precautions we take for safety airsoft is innately dangerous. Why? We runs around wooded areas shooting projectiles at each other at somewhat high velocities. It comes down to this : Am I as a player willing to take the time to mentor and correct the people who will be pointing their gun at me and pulling the trigger? I can only speak for my experiance in paintball, but if I have an opportunaty to correct a flaw of another player I will take it. Because it will make it afer and more enjoyable for me. Why would you as a verteran not want to make better players out of others? Don't better players (notice I said better not more skilled) make for more enjoyable games?
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Old August 8th, 2009, 22:35   #176
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Originally Posted by Goldman View Post
Hell I'd say 99% of players are far more approachable now than they were back when Agit would show up with a broken 249 and those hardcore STAT and WP guys would cause people to bail on games just by signing up.

I'd say the best bet (at least for southern Ontario, I'm not sure how the National Capital guys do it) would be to bring back the newb day. Bring back the milsim teams to scirmishes at public fields/events, and bring back the openess. We've all be jaded or abused, be it trying to mentor a team/player who never repaid you, or being misled into having festering anger with other players.
Well i have to disagree with you there Team STAT signing up on games will only turn pretty much the terminators away, we have no problem with anybody the only ones ever in team STAT target was the terminators from Pacific mall, team STAT can be agressive in our play to some because we don't bunker down (Poncho would kick our collective asses) and before you start on STAT. you should know that we were always more than willing to assist new players, there were countless times where Ponch have assisted his playing time to assist other players and even went as far as opened up his house to host players for OPCT2, what other host has opened up his house for literally strangers???
How manytimes have I or other members of STAT loan out our AEG no questioned asked or rental fee charged?? do we want to be repaid?, No a simple thank you is more than enough and the satisfaction of seeing others being able to play. these days is harder for myself and some others to just give someone our AEG to play with especially when some of the new guys have no care or showing the effort to want to learn about the sport.

Clearguns are a miniscule problem facing ASC/ Canadian airsoft now, the most important thing that I noticed now is just New players not wanting to understand the rules or respect the rules. new players I observed in the last two years are similar to paintball players, Hosing without regards to safety of others, ignoring simple rules such as safety in loading ares etc. these things would have been prevented if the new players were to at least attend the noob day event or even Brian's Course but since the introduction of clearsoft and the availability of it we are overwhelmed by all the noobs wanting to play.
How many youtube videos can you find now with some stupid stunts commited by airsoft or using airsoft??. Shit flinging aside gears and guns are just tools the most important things are training and introductory events where new players can get acustomed to the way this game is played and that's including Proper conductthat is expected to be adhere to by them.

Just my 2 cents
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Old August 8th, 2009, 23:43   #177
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^^^

The thing is though clear guns and stupidity seem to correlate to each other. Albeit not by much but it still does correlate to each other. How might you ask? Well easier procurement for one. If you notice, American kids from the 'burbs can easily get mid grade-high grade quality guns for $200. Well on their allowance/mommies or daddies credit card they can just be idiots about them, there's no "well son I don't think I can buy you a $600 toy" and most kids would just buy an x-box for $399 or something else instead. Now I'm going to speculate and there is no data to support this but I am going to speculate that 99% of the stupid street "wars" and things done with airsoft are done by 14-16 year old American kids from the 'burbs.

Canada on the other hand has enjoyed an iron grip on the Airsoft community and before was basically an "invite only" kind of national "club" where everyone knows everyone else and everything was fine and dandy. The players were more committed and "wanted" to be here (I can only speculate to that as I've been chairsofting since my join date (underage) and only started actively playing last year).

SO the point I believe trying to be made is that without ASC's monopoly on the airsoft community easier procurement for stupid teenagers, newbies who flaunt the rules and act like "paintballers", and "tourists" will all contribute to the "death" of airsoft.

It's not clearsoft that is 100% responsible for the "death" of airsoft but the community's attitude plays a part in this. How this can be changed, I don't know but I do believe that something needs to be done. We've already added the newbie tank and a lot on this site has changed but I think that's as far as we can go. So really we as a community is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 23:44   #178
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Originally Posted by Bonjour43ma View Post


Objection 3: The "Get out of my hobby" comment


I was quite shocked to see a comment like that being posted, let along a few other members that acutally agreed with it. You do not OWN this hobby/sport and anyone that wishes to participate should not be discriminated against because they have a different view than yours. I have many hobbies that are expensive (photography, cars, speedskating) and I have NEVER seen a comment like that in any of those hobby forums. I cannot believe someone acutally said that with a straight face... A comment like that to newbies like myself is utterly offensive and hurtful.

This is the first hobby that I picked up that made me feel un-welcomed, belittled, and un-wanted simply because I am new to it. If you guys really want quality players to stick around and grow into it you should perhaps start thinking about changing your own attitude and try to be more open-minded.

Like BloodSport said - share the fun with others (that are of age/18+), that's the bottom line.
I sorta agreed with the rest of your posts, but this part stuck out for me. The comment you are referring to was directed at someone who cares nothing for airsoft, he mocks airsofters calling them "wannabe army men" and has no intention of ever playing airsoft.

He wanted to get his hands on airsoft so he can shoot cats that stray into his garage, among other things. I have no respect for people like that, and the "get out of my hobby" comment was spot on. I know you are a smart guy by your other posts, read up on Ginnz' previous posts and then make your decision.

Daiviet is a good guy, and he wouldn't have said something like that if it wasn't justified, which it was.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 23:48   #179
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mudder
do you say the same thing to someone wearing a poppy in november?
I'm a 36 year member of the RCL with the card to prove it and Bloodsport, if he had issues should have only touched the upper part of the sig, not
my endorsement of the magazine...that went too far.

So don't preach to me on respecting veterans.

As for the rest of your post I dismiss it.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 00:02   #180
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Well i have to disagree with you there Team STAT signing up on games will only turn pretty much the terminators away, we have no problem with anybody the only ones ever in team STAT target was the terminators from Pacific mall, team STAT can be agressive in our play to some because we don't bunker down (Poncho would kick our collective asses) and before you start on STAT. you should know that we were always more than willing to assist new players, there were countless times where Ponch have assisted his playing time to assist other players and even went as far as opened up his house to host players for OPCT2, what other host has opened up his house for literally strangers???
How manytimes have I or other members of STAT loan out our AEG no questioned asked or rental fee charged?? do we want to be repaid?, No a simple thank you is more than enough and the satisfaction of seeing others being able to play. these days is harder for myself and some others to just give someone our AEG to play with especially when some of the new guys have no care or showing the effort to want to learn about the sport.

Just my 2 cents
You know I reference one Deadlands game and there goes the neighbourhood.

I'm not attacking STAT, nor Poncho and you. The thing I was specificly referencing was one of the deadlands games (potentially Trifecta 1? I can't recall) where WP and some of the STAT crew as I recall signed up, only to immediatley see Agit and a couple others drop out of the game. It was meant to lighten things up from all the poo out there.

I still stand by my point though, it strikes me that folks are a lot more liberal with kit and AEGs at games than they once were. I remember my first few games that there was a) much more of a mythology surrounding the major teams; and b) Most (not all, but I would say 2/3rds) were far more suspicious of new players at games.
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