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Old May 22nd, 2009, 03:11   #1
yuhaoyang
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High speed gears

I am wondering how well 16.32 ratio gears will hold up to different springs. According to common sense, the bigger the energy output of the spring, the more it pushes against the piston, which exerts more force on the gears, wearing them out quicker. I would assume this is more prominant on low ratio gears. Most people say they are for <1J, but a post that Illusion made in the past states that they are best used with prometheus MS100 and MS110s, which both shoot >1J (according to spring chart), and I messaged modifytw, and this is the reply.


It can be used reliably with M120.
Suggested Spring Rangers for Modify Modular Gear Set-SMOOTH (The data sheet is based on using the standard motor and 8.4V battery)
For SMOOTH (Speed 16.32:1)
The performance is Good when you choose S100+ , S110+ or S120+
The performance is OK when you choose S90+ , S130+ or S140+
For SMOOTH (Torque 21.6:1)
The performance is Good when you choose S110+, S120+ or 130+
The performance is OK when you choose S100+ or S140+

Does anyone (preferably some gundoc whiz) actually know the correct answer out of this mess? Currently I am running the modular SMOOTH highspeed set in my M16 from airsoftparts with a MS100SP, and I am thinking of upgrading it to a M110 or MS110SP. Yeah I know, I should have bought high torque, but they had been out of stock for like 2 months, and immediately after I buy mine, they come back into stock XD. It's a G&P mechbox with mostly modify parts and a G&P piston/cylinder assembly. I'm also using a stock CA motor, which could pull a M120 with a 9.6v and standard ratio gears

PS: anyone know a company that makes the S+ springs? The only ones I could find were SP ones.

Also also, what exactly is the formula used to calculate Joules for BBs? That internet converter thing that everyone seems to use says it's 330fps, but if the E(J)=.5m(kg)v(m/s)^2 formula is to be used, then 370fps is 1J.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 03:46   #2
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Mixing the spring strengths? Buh? That doesn't make any sense...
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 03:50   #3
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? If you were talking about the upgrade part, basically I am looking for around 350fps, which cannot be gotten from a MS100SP, because even with perfect airseals (test subject on ASC spring chart), which I don't have, it could only do 340ish. If you are talking about any other part, you would have to elaborate, because those would be information obtained elsewhere.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 04:19   #4
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you should just run a modify s110 spring and not a modify m110.....the difference is the m110 is alot stiffer to compress then the s110. So since your increasing your fps and running speed gears you will be better off using the modify s100 or s110

modify s100=369 fps
modify s110-410 fps

http://www.airsoftparts.ca/news/modifyspringtest.pdf

http://www.airsoftparts.ca/store2/in...roducts_id=886

hope this helps
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 05:38   #5
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Here's the "correct" answer:

"It depends on the ratio of the gears, your motor, your battery, and the brand of the spring that you use."
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 05:39   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuhaoyang View Post
? If you were talking about the upgrade part, basically I am looking for around 350fps, which cannot be gotten from a MS100SP, because even with perfect airseals (test subject on ASC spring chart), which I don't have, it could only do 340ish. If you are talking about any other part, you would have to elaborate, because those would be information obtained elsewhere.
That chart is no way indicative of what FPS you will get on your own setup. It is +/- over 30 FPS depending on your setup regardless of airseal. It's a combination of piston, cylinder, cylinder porting, type of piston head, type of cylinder head, type of nozzle, type of hop-up, type of barrel, length of barrel, the existence of bearings in either or both the piston head assembly and the spring guide etc.

I have used the same springs Illusion has on his chart and have gotten way different FPS than he does. That guide is only useful as a tool to judge the relative comparisions between springs only to give you a general idea.

I don't have anything to offer regarding the gearsets. I know from personal experience that my stock CA motor cannot pull an M120 spring with a 9.6v mini unless I put in my helical gears.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 05:42   #7
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SNK's got the nail on the head. The chart doesn't say what velocity you WILL get if you use a certain spring.

All it says is, "this is how much of a difference you'll get compared to this *other* spring you tested with."





As for the energy calculation formula, this is it:

(velocity/3.3)² X weight of BB / 2,000 = Energy in Joules
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 10:02   #8
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I've worked on a couple of rifles in the past week or so. All ended up with Modify S--- springs.

Some had torque up gears...some were "mostly" stock...some were tweaked to the edge...some were in rough shape when they came in (i.e. opened the mechbox and broken bits of stuff came out). These are all chronied with hopup off.

KWA M4 + S100 = ~374fps w/0.20
KWA M4 + S90 = ~345fps w/0.20

G&G M4 + S90 = ~301fps w/0.20
G&G M4 + S100= ~335fps w/0.20

RS AK + S90 = ~301fps w/0.20
RS AK + S110 = ~385fps w/0.20

custom M4 + S110 = ~415fps w/0.20 (oops)
custom M4 (CQB) + S100 = ~360fps w/0.20 (oops)
KWA M4 + S90 = ~344fps w/0.20

KA FAL + S110 = ~390fps w/0.20 (sweet)
KA FAL Carbine + stock spring = ~350fps w/0.20 (supra sweet...it's mine)
KA FAL Carbine + S110 = ~399fps w/0.20

CA M4 + M110 = ~420fps w/0.20 (!!!frack!!!)
CA M4 + M100 = ~387fps w/0.20

There's probably a couple of others somewhere in there...but I can't keep track of them all....

One of the best ones was a tiny AKS74U that I did up for a shooter...S120 = !!!485fps w/0.20!!!....S110 = !!!455fps!!! and finally S100 = 405fps w/0.20. How does a rifle with a tiny little barrel shoot WAY over what the spring "should" shoot? I'm not telling....LOL ('cause I don't know)

Things to note:
1. There is NO "magic" 100% reliable formula for slapping in a spring and getting a certain velocity...there are only ranges (and the ranges are at a min +/- 20fps)
2. Buy the spring that you "think" will put you in that range...and then buy the next one down as well.
3. A chronograph is a MUST...shooting pop cans and just guessing is irresponsible and laughable
4. Stock gear ratios can pull M90/100/110/120 spring fine...they struggle a bit at M120 and make the motor work hard.
5. You can assemble a rifle, disassemble it and reassemble it...and your FPS can easily vary between the assemblies by as much as 5fps
6. Aim lower than the Maximum field limit...300-330fps is plenty for indoors, 380-ish is plenty for outdoors. You're not really going to get a lot more range from another 10fps...if you're shooting hot at a limited FPS game you're an asshole cheat...if some players aren't calling their hits after you shoot them repeatedly, they're not going to change because your rifle is shooting 10fps faster.
7. I should spend more time playing than fixing stuff...








(magic formula: Modify bearing spring guide + Modify bearing piston head + Modify S90 = mid 340's fps...if you buy from Airsoftparts.ca....but don't tell anyone else...)

Last edited by m102404; May 22nd, 2009 at 10:06..
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 13:56   #9
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Thanks for all the help guys, but there still is the issue of whether high speed gears can cope with a S110+ like that modifytw guy on youtube said, because it seems to be the general consensus that they are strictly for <1J XD.If anyone knows that would be awesome! Thanks again!

Gears wil be 16.32 modify smooth modulars, with a CA stock motor, a G&P 9.6v mini, and I would be looking to use a modify S110+ or a prometheus MS110SP.

I should say m102404, I do realize the fps thing, but right now, all of my guns are sub 340. So having 1 of them, the M16, set up for woodland couldn't hurt that much XD.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 14:07   #10
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My C7A2 (CA M15-based) with stock CA gears is running an MS110SP spring. Shoots a nice steady 385 fps. But with standard CA gears and the CA "high torque" (I use that name loosely) motor, there was considerable trigger lag, even while running a large 9.6V 3300 mAh battery. I think it'll be even worse if you're running high speed gears. It took a Systema Magnum motor to kick up the initial rof (19 BB/second) and decrease trigger lag to almost nothing. Even then, I'm thinking of throwing in a high torque gear set. I value a responsive trigger far more than high rof.

IMO, high speed gears should be saved for sub-350 fps setups. At the very least you'll want standard ratio gears with a setup that's in the 400 fps range, especially if you're running the stock CA motor.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 15:46   #11
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If you have any problems, really you can just change the battery to something with high discharge rate. In my experience, that's the biggest arbiter of what kind of a spring any gears or motor can pull and the biggest arbiter of ROF as well.

On stock gears with stock weak motors, I throw a 20-25C lipo on and all problems are solved. Don't need torque up or high speed gears at all for m130 springs for high ROF.
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Old May 23rd, 2009, 01:31   #12
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ahha ahha. I see the spring chart was done with a bearing spring guide AND piston head. Well, as of now the piston gets pulled a half cycle on semi, so hopefully this+an S110+ will completely eliminate that problem.
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