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Old May 8th, 2009, 11:30   #1
chronic
 
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First Guns

Ok so I have pretty much settled on a KJW G23 GBB for my sidearm. I mean if its not a Glock it might as well be a pea shooter.

I simply cannot make up my mind. I have settled on an M4A1 (crane stock) but i cant figure who to get it from.

If money was no object I would probably get the new ics m4a1 with the smoked clear recv ,not the white one like below (that supposed to be in next week).
http://www.mach1airsoft.com/web/cata...om&id=20&cat=1

The G&G m4a1 combo seems to be a good deal.
http://diviarms.000space.com/index.p...722058a6c83e08


Then i see some dude named huang selling Well M4A1s that look pretty good but online reviews say fps is 200 but he says 350.
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=69429


I even considered a plastic TF16 from basspro:
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st..._SearchResults


Help me..
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Old May 8th, 2009, 11:39   #2
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If your looking for a first gun to start with try Frank at Velocity Arms here on the forums. Products are solid, prices are great and the customer service is excellent. My team mate picked up the G&G M4A1 from Frank and loves it... shoots fast and solid with excellent groupings out of the box. Lower receiver is clear but in all honesty your going to paint it anyway so no biggie. He also carries the new M4A1 with the blow back on it as well... great place to start for a first gun.

And for the record... I'll put my TM 5.1 Hi Cappa up against that pea shooter Glock any day... lol.

Cheers.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 11:44   #3
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you are age verified why don't you go buy an m4a1 from someone here but if thats not the case the G@G guns are pretty top notch if there suppose to be better than JG (gun i own) then it shoudn't be a problem
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Old May 8th, 2009, 11:46   #4
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I'm not sure why you would choose ICS if money was no object, most people would choose a PTW, or at least Classic Army or Tokyo Marui.

If you could state how much you're willing to spend on the various parts of kit we would be able to advise you better.

Manufacturer is generally more important then the style. Generally all airsoft aeg's work the same so how it looks like outside is up to you. Though the advice in the Airsoft Newbie Buying Guide about styles is good. Generally ak47, m16/m4 or mp5 are good starter gun styles due to the availability of accessories and upgrades.

For $200, the best you could manage is Aftermath stuff. Both the Broxa (full stock MP5) and the Kraken (AK47) are decent bargain basement guns, about $160 or so each. Stay away from Aftermath's Kirenex or Knight (both M4 variants) and the Lycaon (collapsible stock MP5) though, not a good rep.

If you're willing to go up to $300 you could get a JG. Yeah JG's are China clones but they're getting quite respectable nowadays. JG's M4 runs about $290. You could even get one of the G&G cansoft (clear receiver) M4's for about $340. G&G is the cheapest of the midgrade guns. $400-$450 would get you an ICS which is a higher end midgrade gun. $500-$600 would get you a G&P, there's some debate on whether this is the lowest of the higrade guns or if it should rank higher. Either way they make nice guns.

If you can afford it highgrade guns such as Tokyo Marui or Classic Army are the way to go. They're going to run you $600-$700. Though if the M4/M16 style is what you want then I'd recommend staying away from stock TM's, the barrel wobble and creaking are pretty bad on the stock TM M4/M16's.

I did extensive research and settled on the Tactical Carbine version of the Classic Army M15A4 as my first gun. If an Armalite is what you're looking for then I think it's the best of all possible versions. You have the shortened M4 carbine barrel, which makes you less likely to smack your barrel off something when turning quickly, combined with the full stock which houses a large battery. Small batteries don't have near the run time of a large battery, not to mention that the reinforced slip ring (the ring that keeps the fore-grip on) is really stong. While this is mostly a good thing and a big step up over CA's previous M15 versions, it makes changing small batteries in the field very difficult if not impossible.

CA's M15A4 series in general is a big step up over their previous versions and as far as stock armalites go they're probably the best. All metal where the real steel version is, the plastic parts where the real steal version is plastic are made of high quality enhanced nylon fiber rather then abs for great texture and feel. Classic Army has a deal with Armalite so you get all the proper markings. Plus that deal also goes to show the quality of the manufacture, Armalite wouldn't put their name on a shoddy product.

Internally the gearbox is reinforced metal and all the gears are metal as well. It fires hotter stock then Tokyo Marui's as well, firing at 300-320 fps where your average TM only fires 280-300 fps.

All in all this is a great starter gun if you can afford it. Because it's all metal you don't have to worry nearly as much about breaking it and you won't get any of the wobble or creaking that is infamous in stock TM M4/M16's. Unfortunately affording it is the biggest problem, they're not cheap. For reference I got my CA M15A4 from the classifieds, upgraded with a bunch of Systema internals to fire 390fps, for $600 shipped which was a great price.

One of the perks of going with an M16/M4 variant is that mags are dead easy to come by and dirt cheap. You can get Star brand mags for like $5 a mag or less, plastic yeah but sturdy none the less (Star is also the only brand that makes realcaps too). Metal mags will run you a fair bit more, $15 to $30 a mag. There's no real reason to go with metal over plastic for mags except looks/realism. Though of course if you're going to go hicap then you might as well get metal ones. As to Brands, TM and CA make good mags. I've heard pretty good stuff about MAG brand mags as well. King Arms not so much, especially for M4/M16 mags. Star is always a good affordable fallback too.

Some people say you need to shell out for batteries, mags, camo, chargers and ammo in the begining. Most of that isn't necessary right off the hop. The stock battery will do you for awhile. Most of the guns come with a hicap (high capacity (300-600 rounds)) mag that will also do for awhile. I do agree that a good charger would be a sound initial investment, but not a total requirement, especially if you plan to get a good battery down the road and don't care if the cheap wall charger fries your stock battery. Camo isn't really required in the beginning either, just some dark clothes. Ammo, yeah obviously a requirement but even good ammo (BB Bastard) only costs $10 for two thousand rounds.

So truely, all you really need to start is the gun, a bag or two of ammo and good eye protection (which will run you between $30 and $50). That said, if you can afford it then it all helps. Camo would cost about $100, a chest rig or vest would cost another $100. A good loadout of mags, even the cheap Star mags, are going to cost at least $50. A good charger is at least another $50, with another $50 for a good battery. A sidearm is another thing that people like to have but isn't really necessary. A decent sidearm would cost you between $250 and $350.

Sidearms aren't really required right away so if you're on a limited budget then hold off on the sidearm for now. If you have the budget for it then what you want in a sidearm depends on two factors (besides cost of course) whether or not full metal is a must and exactly what model you're partial to. Certain manufacturers tend to make certain models better then others. If full metal is a must then the best choice that isn't going to cost you an arm and a leg is probably KJW, especially for the M9 which they do very well. You'll see alot of WE's around, they're cheap and full metal but tend to have problems, especially their 1911 models. KJW has a rep of having mag problems, but I have two KJW pistols and I haven't had any trouble with my mags. If full metal isn't a must then WA or TM would be very good choices.

Kuro_Neko

Last edited by Kuro_Neko; May 8th, 2009 at 11:50..
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Old May 8th, 2009, 11:53   #5
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Originally Posted by Kuro_Neko View Post
I'm not sure why you would choose ICS if money was no object, most people would choose a PTW, or at least Classic Army or Tokyo Marui.

If you could state how much you're willing to spend on the various parts of kit we would be able to advise you better.

Manufacturer is generally more important then the style. Generally all airsoft aeg's work the same so how it looks like outside is up to you. Though the advice in the Airsoft Newbie Buying Guide about styles is good. Generally ak47, m16/m4 or mp5 are good starter gun styles due to the availability of accessories and upgrades.

For $200, the best you could manage is Aftermath stuff. Both the Broxa (full stock MP5) and the Kraken (AK47) are decent bargain basement guns, about $160 or so each. Stay away from Aftermath's Kirenex or Knight (both M4 variants) and the Lycaon (collapsible stock MP5) though, not a good rep.

If you're willing to go up to $300 you could get a JG. Yeah JG's are China clones but they're getting quite respectable nowadays. JG's M4 runs about $290. You could even get one of the G&G cansoft (clear receiver) M4's for about $340. G&G is the cheapest of the midgrade guns. $400-$450 would get you an ICS which is a higher end midgrade gun. $500-$600 would get you a G&P, there's some debate on whether this is the lowest of the higrade guns or if it should rank higher. Either way they make nice guns.

If you can afford it highgrade guns such as Tokyo Marui or Classic Army are the way to go. They're going to run you $600-$700. Though if the M4/M16 style is what you want then I'd recommend staying away from stock TM's, the barrel wobble and creaking are pretty bad on the stock TM M4/M16's.

I did extensive research and settled on the Tactical Carbine version of the Classic Army M15A4 as my first gun. If an Armalite is what you're looking for then I think it's the best of all possible versions. You have the shortened M4 carbine barrel, which makes you less likely to smack your barrel off something when turning quickly, combined with the full stock which houses a large battery. Small batteries don't have near the run time of a large battery, not to mention that the reinforced slip ring (the ring that keeps the fore-grip on) is really stong. While this is mostly a good thing and a big step up over CA's previous M15 versions, it makes changing small batteries in the field very difficult if not impossible.

CA's M15A4 series in general is a big step up over their previous versions and as far as stock armalites go they're probably the best. All metal where the real steel version is, the plastic parts where the real steal version is plastic are made of high quality enhanced nylon fiber rather then abs for great texture and feel. Classic Army has a deal with Armalite so you get all the proper markings. Plus that deal also goes to show the quality of the manufacture, Armalite wouldn't put their name on a shoddy product.

Internally the gearbox is reinforced metal and all the gears are metal as well. It fires hotter stock then Tokyo Marui's as well, firing at 300-320 fps where your average TM only fires 280-300 fps.

All in all this is a great starter gun if you can afford it. Because it's all metal you don't have to worry nearly as much about breaking it and you won't get any of the wobble or creaking that is infamous in stock TM M4/M16's. Unfortunately affording it is the biggest problem, they're not cheap. For reference I got my CA M15A4 from the classifieds, upgraded with a bunch of Systema internals to fire 390fps, for $600 shipped which was a great price.

One of the perks of going with an M16/M4 variant is that mags are dead easy to come by and dirt cheap. You can get Star brand mags for like $5 a mag or less, plastic yeah but sturdy none the less (Star is also the only brand that makes realcaps too). Metal mags will run you a fair bit more, $15 to $30 a mag. There's no real reason to go with metal over plastic for mags except looks/realism. Though of course if you're going to go hicap then you might as well get metal ones. As to Brands, TM and CA make good mags. I've heard pretty good stuff about MAG brand mags as well. King Arms not so much, especially for M4/M16 mags. Star is always a good affordable fallback too.

Some people say you need to shell out for batteries, mags, camo, chargers and ammo in the begining. Most of that isn't necessary right off the hop. The stock battery will do you for awhile. Most of the guns come with a hicap (high capacity (300-600 rounds)) mag that will also do for awhile. I do agree that a good charger would be a sound initial investment, but not a total requirement, especially if you plan to get a good battery down the road and don't care if the cheap wall charger fries your stock battery. Camo isn't really required in the beginning either, just some dark clothes. Ammo, yeah obviously a requirement but even good ammo (BB Bastard) only costs $10 for two thousand rounds.

So truely, all you really need to start is the gun, a bag or two of ammo and good eye protection (which will run you between $30 and $50). That said, if you can afford it then it all helps. Camo would cost about $100, a chest rig or vest would cost another $100. A good loadout of mags, even the cheap Star mags, are going to cost at least $50. A good charger is at least another $50, with another $50 for a good battery. A sidearm is another thing that people like to have but isn't really necessary. A decent sidearm would cost you between $250 and $350.

Sidearms aren't really required right away so if you're on a limited budget then hold off on the sidearm for now. If you have the budget for it then what you want in a sidearm depends on two factors (besides cost of course) whether or not full metal is a must and exactly what model you're partial to. Certain manufacturers tend to make certain models better then others. If full metal is a must then the best choice that isn't going to cost you an arm and a leg is probably KJW, especially for the M9 which they do very well. You'll see alot of WE's around, they're cheap and full metal but tend to have problems, especially their 1911 models. KJW has a rep of having mag problems, but I have two KJW pistols and I haven't had any trouble with my mags. If full metal isn't a must then WA or TM would be very good choices.

Kuro_Neko

+1 to that i do enjoy reading your long paragraphs

also if you didn't get gear already then you should buy gear first. I also herd that people won't mind if you play with ur seccondary the first/second year as long as u have the clips and equipment and are generaly a good guy. best of luck
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Old May 8th, 2009, 12:00   #6
m102404
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Ansarm,

Ask Shinobii at Mach1 about an ICS package.

I'm talking to him about putting together a setup that'll allow you to go between indoor sub-350 to outdoor sub-400 by simply switching the upper mechbox....and that's with the smoke lower receiver.

Side by side, the plastic lower receiver of the ICS is so much thicker/stronger/flexible (you want it to flex instead of cracking) than the G&G clear lowers. With a plastic receiver, I'd go for durability over anything else.

The ICS mechboxes are their standard ICS mechboxes...no "discounted/sportline/tactica-whatever" parts.

The spring release feature is very nice. But the ability to hit a sub-350fps game one day and a sub-400 the next without opening up your whole rifle is just plain killer. Shinobii has, or can get in, any ICS part (except metal receivers)...so there's no issue with hard to find parts.

It's more than a clear G&G...but it's a lot less than having two separate rifles tuned for different things!

Have fun,

Tys
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Old May 8th, 2009, 12:03   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGear View Post
+1 to that i do enjoy reading your long paragraphs
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGear View Post
also if you didn't get gear already then you should buy gear first. I also herd that people won't mind if you play with ur seccondary the first/second year as long as u have the clips and equipment and are generaly a good guy. best of luck
I don't really agree. There are a few groups that are gear snobs and won't let people, even newbies, play in street clothes or with hicaps but generally most people are much more easy going about that. I think it's better to get the best rifle you can manage first and then the gear piecemeal as you can afford it, rather then compromising on gun quality.

If by secondary you mean sidearm then perhaps groups would let you play with it but you're going to get slaughtered. A semi-auto GBB against full-auto AEG's? No contest. Not to mention that having enough GBB mags to play a full game with only your sidearm would cost a small fortune as they range from $20-$40 each.

Kuro_Neko
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Old May 8th, 2009, 12:04   #8
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Now you finally see the light Tys

ICS M4's are sweet, the split mech is
a dream to swap and maintain. No
more trying to cram a compressed
spring into a mechbox while trying
to keep the parts from flying out.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 12:34   #9
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Sorry I didn't read the whole post but at least, I read a little related to ICS gun. Just cut out of the some crap, let me give you some light.

If you plan to get the ICS M4, you shouldn't get the half breed version. There is a review from our former ICS user and might be the person who has a lots of knowledge for ICS M4. The halfbreed version half the half clear receiver so because of that, quick swap the upper receiver is very limit sine the clear lower receiver tend to break down if you use so much force to pull the rear pin to open it up. So quick swap won't happen so quick anymore, beside that. Everything seem to be fine from my point view.

Since you are already AV, just stay calm down and waiting for a few ICS M4 full metal pop up. I wait for mine for almost a year until a brand new one pop up and least that 500 $.

Most of people turn to ask most of noob go to Classic Army or Upgrade TM because of their durability but the point is person who encourage noob to choose those brand is because they never get a hand on ICS M4 or work on internal of the gun, that's why ICS is way too off from their list.

The reason that I always suggest ICS to noob is because of their quick swap upper receiver than can go variety from 350 to 400 fps for outdoor and indoor, that's mean you don't need two rifle or go to gun doc and ask them swap spring for you or go www.mechbox.com and learn to do. If you success then it's good for you but if not, you will end up bring to gun doc again, bring the whole gun to fix is way cheaper than bring the piece.

From my point view, ICS gun is like to dream to work with. It could has some issue with external but most the issue are easily to fix and noob can do it by themself.

Keep in mind that most of people say that ICS M4 is different design than of M4 user because of their swap upper receiver but there are a few parts that are different, Let me give you a list :

-Air nozzle longer than regular M4 nozzle,
-Anti Reversal latch is different design, regular M4 won't fit on
-Hop up unit is unique design like G36 but G36 and M4 won't fit, you can modify one piece M4 hop up to fit but stick with the stock one is better.
-Regular M4 grip, won't on ICS M4 as well except the guarder version is fit
-Stock, if you are willing to change stock then need to change buffer tube as well since ICS buffer tube slightly bigger than normal M4 buffer tube and need some modification as well.
-Old Model ICS M4 were using metric thread on their front set and new version is suing imperial thread so you don't have any problem to fit any front set except you need to sand a pin coming from the chamer not to get in with a new front set.

So far, the rest are regular M4 compatible, and also the rest internal are V2 mechbox.

Note : if you willing to upgrade gears on ICS M4 then you need to change the motor as well since the gears and motor of ICS are way deeper than normal motor and gear so regular motor won't turn the gears or you can just pull out the opinion of ICS Motor and put on a new motor.

Hope it hlep you make up your mind.

KND
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Old May 8th, 2009, 16:45   #10
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We're getting lots of calls in for buyers waiting for the ICS new transparent tinted receivers. The split mechbox concept is definitely a key feature that can't be ignored. If there are dealers we haven't contacted yet, my apologies, as we're swamped trying to handle the incoming Bioval BBB and BBBMAX shipments, and preparing for the inbound ICS line up. If we haven't called you yet, we will. OR call us or drop an email, and we'll give you a heads up on the status of everything.


OH YA... Check out our line up of Revision ballistic eyewear & goggles as well. Good luck getting a bb through these lenses. Not even the Adamantium coated Super human BBBMAX can penetrate these goggles. LOL!! If you're worried about damaging or cracking these goggles forget it. The U.S military has made Revision eyewear their primary ballistic eyewear protection of choice.

Big thanks to all of Mach1airsoft supporters, friends, current and future customers.

Cheers.

Shinobii.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 16:48   #11
m102404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safx View Post
Now you finally see the light Tys

ICS M4's are sweet, the split mech is
a dream to swap and maintain. No
more trying to cram a compressed
spring into a mechbox while trying
to keep the parts from flying out.
I'm going ass backwards (don't get excited...) on this one bud...just bought a PTW and now I'm trying to save up for an ICS. It's bizzaro land.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 21:19   #12
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The JG guns are fairly solid. Huang sells the M4 in full black aswell.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 21:41   #13
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The JG guns are fairly solid. Huang sells the M4 in full black aswell.
Are those 240 or 350 FPS?
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Old May 8th, 2009, 21:47   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinobii View Post

OH YA... Check out our line up of Revision ballistic eyewear & goggles as well. Good luck getting a bb through these lenses. Not even the Adamantium coated Super human BBBMAX can penetrate these goggles. LOL!! If you're worried about damaging or cracking these goggles forget it. The U.S military has made Revision eyewear their primary ballistic eyewear protection of choice.
Shinobii.
Ok these look freaking awesome. But I have a pointy head. Any retailers have these in stock so I can try them on?
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Old May 8th, 2009, 21:55   #15
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Shinobii runs Mach1airsoft.com

Check them out
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