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Calling out firecracker grenades or not : your experience and opinion

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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:34   #1
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Calling out firecracker grenades or not : your experience and opinion

As a game organizer I am often faced with this rule : call GRENADE! before throwing a grenade that contains "explosives".

I was told that was the rule when I started airsoft and have been using it ever since. As you can guess, it lowers the efficiency of grenades quite a bit since people are aware that something is coming (when it is otherwise very silent).

I was wondering :

1. Is that rule used pretty much all over Canada?
2. Has there been any events that prompted the introduction of such a rule?
3. has anyone used pyro-grenades without that rule? Any problems to report?
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:39   #2
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 12:25   #3
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2. Has there been any events that prompted the introduction of such a rule?
3. has anyone used pyro-grenades without that rule? Any problems to report?
2- One of my teamate got his heardrum busted by a grenade outdoor. Other people I know got hurt by the loud bang of grenade that exploded close to them outside and inside.

3- When piro grenade where fairly new and growing in popularity, there was not really rules into place. We only got fragged and dealed with varius type of explosives. It was a problem because people could put anything they want into the grenade and people where bitching about the loud bang and where genuinly scared.


This is my doctrine about grenades.

Grenade are used to dislodge ennemies from a position. Doing so by either killing them, by forcing them to move or by forcing them to take action to protect themself that will allow you to move on them.

Once in range for grenade use, calling a grenade out tell your team to get ready to assault and stand by for the blast. It also tell the ennemy to stand by for the blast and protect themself by covering their ears or moving. When they cover their ears, they are not fighting anymore, allowing you to move on them.

So, my ideology for airsoft is, if you call a grenade, it's to end a stale mate and regain some innitiative or momemtum in your attack. For safety reason, grenades should always be called and it will not diminish their efficiency as a "weapon".

Firecrakers might not be very loud outside, but inside, with reverberation and overpressure, they are loud and could still be dangerous. They should be called all the time. So, if we play outside with building, trowing one in a building would require an automatic and mandatory call for safety reason. Still, trowing one outside should require a call also, so the ennemy know a grenade is inbound and if it land in his face, he will expect and and take actions to protect himself.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 12:35   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOX_111 View Post
2- One of my teamate got his heardrum busted by a grenade outdoor. Other people I know got hurt by the loud bang of grenade that exploded close to them outside and inside.

3- When piro grenade where fairly new and growing in popularity, there was not really rules into place. We only got fragged and dealed with varius type of explosives. It was a problem because people could put anything they want into the grenade and people where bitching about the loud bang and where genuinly scared.


This is my doctrine about grenades.

Grenade are used to dislodge ennemies from a position. Doing so by either killing them, by forcing them to move or by forcing them to take action to protect themself that will allow you to move on them.

Once in range for grenade use, calling a grenade out tell your team to get ready to assault and stand by for the blast. It also tell the ennemy to stand by for the blast and protect themself by covering their ears or moving. When they cover their ears, they are not fighting anymore, allowing you to move on them.

So, my ideology for airsoft is, if you call a grenade, it's to end a stale mate and regain some innitiative or momemtum in your attack. For safety reason, grenades should always be called and it will not diminish their efficiency as a "weapon".

Firecrakers might not be very loud outside, but inside, with reverberation and overpressure, they are loud and could still be dangerous. They should be called all the time. So, if we play outside with building, trowing one in a building would require an automatic and mandatory call for safety reason. Still, trowing one outside should require a call also, so the ennemy know a grenade is inbound and if it land in his face, he will expect and and take actions to protect himself.
I totally agree. I also believe that a major issue with home made grenades are the fact that there is no measure of strength and it quickly become an arms race. Bigger, bigger , louder until it gets ridiculously loud (dangerous).
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 16:09   #5
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Originally Posted by oOMuDOo View Post
I totally agree. I also believe that a major issue with home made grenades are the fact that there is no measure of strength and it quickly become an arms race. Bigger, bigger , louder until it gets ridiculously loud (dangerous).
+1

MuD and Fox have both been around long enough to remember when pyros/grenades started making their appearance on the field. I actually don't remember any games were "grenade" was called, except recent stuff at Action500. They most likely also remember the period when grenades were simply not allowed at games because they became too much of a headache for organizers.

The problem stems in large part because people don't fully understand why grenades are loud and because there are no rules or measures covering how loud they can be. While limits are set out in terms of the fireworks used to create them, AS grenades usually exist as a modified derivative of the original product which cannot be easily identified (in either substance or quantity).

The second problem is there are no rules concerning how tightly the canister can be wrapped, and some people don't seem to understand that a very tightly wrapped canister will produce a louder/sharper rapport.




EDIT

Also, concerning hearing protection, while high end gear like Peltors is really slick (protection + amplification of weak sounds, high range cutoff, etc) it aren't absolutely necessary for adequate protection: Peltor 6S and 7S models are rated to a NRR (Noise Reduction Rating -- higher value offers more protection) of 19db and 24db respectively. In comparison, those "Yellow Foamie" ear plugs are rated to a NRR or 29db when correctly used (i.e., rolled up and inserted deeply enough into the ear canal). While they muffle ambient sound a bit they still provide enough hearing for airsoft and will provide protection against loud noises (I've used them while working on stage at concerts as well as for shooting up to 7.62x51).
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 22:02   #6
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For the Quebec region, we could easily standardized a grenade model (IMO), keeping in mind we all go to the same area to get our pyro stuff. (same one to get cheap cigarette and fuel...).

2 black cats (for reliability)
1 small dentist like cup
dry pea
a bit of masking tape to wrap it up

Those have been around for 5-10 games in Quebec, there are cheap and easy to make, no incident reported so far (to my knowledge). They don t create crazy shockwave and the like...

If someone use a crazy device (airbomb and the like), he get the same sanction as running around with a 400 fps AEG in CQB let say...
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 22:32   #7
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There are bangers and frag grenades available for sale now. Some even made in Canada!

Yes if you yell grenade and throw, first you're warning your team to keep their heads down, and you may flush your target.

There will be a few times when it may be smarter to slip a frag into an unsuspecting target but if you're in that sort of mil-sim type game then there will most likely be a ROE you can follow.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:11   #8
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Here in Ottawa (where the current style of pyro grenades where invented as far as I know) we have been making them the exact same for years. The only problems I have ever heard of grenades being packed extra tight, using larger charges, or throwing them at peoples heads on purpose are all problems only run into at Quebec games. In Ottawa we have, as said, been making them the same for years with the same charges (airbombs) and have never had a problem outdoors.

Notice how I say Ottawa and not Ontario, there are some teams down in the Toronto area who have a similar arms race to make louder and more powerful grenades. I only run into those people at really large games like at Rawdon and the few games I go to in Southern Ontario usually don't allow grenades. Ottawa players safely used grenades even indoors at the mill for more than a year before some Quebec ass holes (no idea who they where but I have never seen them again, all I know is they had Quebec plates on their vehicles) started to double and triple wrap grenades in duct tape to make them louder, threw them directly at people without calling anything, and in one case lowered one on a string from one floor to another directly beside someones head (a team mate knocked him out of the way so he didn't blow his ear drum.)
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:17   #9
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Grenades are like hot guns. They don't mix with noobs and stupids.

At Rawdon last year, I saw a bunch of idiots from Ontario that where dangerous with grenades, among other things.

Some people here in Québec where testing new grenades desings. Some where frightening but after all those tests, those that I frequent more regularly got good at making them and I think they got the recepy for a good, safe, loud grenade.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:23   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUTNIT View Post
Here in Ottawa (where the current style of pyro grenades where invented as far as I know) we have been making them the exact same for years. The only problems I have ever heard of grenades being packed extra tight, using larger charges, or throwing them at peoples heads on purpose are all problems only run into at Quebec games. In Ottawa we have, as said, been making them the same for years with the same charges (airbombs) and have never had a problem outdoors.

Notice how I say Ottawa and not Ontario, there are some teams down in the Toronto area who have a similar arms race to make louder and more powerful grenades. I only run into those people at really large games like at Rawdon and the few games I go to in Southern Ontario usually don't allow grenades. Ottawa players safely used grenades even indoors at the mill for more than a year before some Quebec ass holes (no idea who they where but I have never seen them again, all I know is they had Quebec plates on their vehicles) started to double and triple wrap grenades in duct tape to make them louder, threw them directly at people without calling anything, and in one case lowered one on a string from one floor to another directly beside someones head (a team mate knocked him out of the way so he didn't blow his ear drum.)
Those type of incident provide more reasons to do a grenade check before the game (like fps check). It would probably be easier to catch a overly powerfull grenade from the noise and shockwave (and the grenade remain) versus a hot AEG. Peoples one day decided 350 fps indoor, 400 fps outside for AEG-GBB power. It now pretty much the standard (in Eastern Canada at least from my understanding). The same could be done with grenade by having a standard of manufacturing.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:34   #11
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Originally Posted by Long_Bong View Post
2 black cats (for reliability)
1 small dentist like cup
dry pea
a bit of masking tape to wrap it up
No need to call these.

Just call the louder one.

Done. Let's play!
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:37   #12
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Slightly off topic, but in as a milsim enthusiast I'd much rather "frag out" be used than "grenade"

And often times, FPS checks aren't even done... so grenade checks, when most people don't know what to check for? Good luck.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:38   #13
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Out here we've always called Grenade whether its a grenade that goes bang or a dummy grenade with set rules for radius for kill zones.

Either way everyone playing knows a grenade is inbound and watches or moves accordingly.

Better to be safe then sorry.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:46   #14
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Slightly off topic, but in as a milsim enthusiast I'd much rather "frag out" be used than "grenade"

And often times, FPS checks aren't even done... so grenade checks, when most people don't know what to check for? Good luck.
On the topic of milsim.

The call for outgoing grenade is not a standard thing around the world. It was designed as a code at first, like "fire in the hole" or "frag out".

The way I see it, we should call "frag out" for outgoing grenades and yell "Grenade" when one is spotted comming in our direction, to warn teamates to take defencives action.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 23:52   #15
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On the topic of milsim.

The call for outgoing grenade is not a standard thing around the world. It was designed as a code at first, like "fire in the hole" or "frag out".

The way I see it, we should call "frag out" for outgoing grenades and yell "Grenade" when one is spotted comming in our direction, to warn teamates to take defencives action.
Yeah, that's how it should be done... and I realize "Frag out" is a very Western thing... if KAK, for example, wanted to use something else (dunno what they say in Russian) that's fine, as long as everyone on the field knows about it.
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