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Old March 26th, 2009, 09:58   #46
m102404's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
Here's my $0.02...

1. Forget handing out BBs and setting rules around what weight can be used in which rifle...too complicated, you're trying to make the rules and game organization simpler/easier, not harder.

2. If you want to introduce a difference between types or weapons, consider setting FPS limits for different weapons. Chrony them all w/ 0.20g bbs and then let the players decide what BBs they want to run and what works best for them.
- pistols = stock-310fps
- SMG = stock - 310fps
- 5.56/SAW = < 350fps
- 7.62 = < 400fps
- sniper rifles (bolt action or electrical/mechanically fixed semi) = <450fps
***depends on the game and CQB/open field setup...lower or raise all the limits to suite...but most indoor places are capped at 350fps and most outdoor at 400fps so that's a good level to start with.
***a lot of "vets" don't really care if all the guns are shooting 400fps...when they're at games when they know the large marjority of guys have good trigger control and discipline. Op Broadsword was a good example of such a time.

3. Set SIMPLE and CLEAR ammo check...follow through.
- BW rules may not appeal to those who want real cap...but they're simple to follow.
- Real cap (or low/mid caps loaded to 33-34 rounds) makes for a higher consciousness in the player (or else they wonder why they're out of ammo after the first hour).
- Make the respawn/resupply point far enough away that people who get killed or run out of ammo are out of the action for at least 15min. Impress upon them that getting killed or running out of ammo is NOT A GOOD THING.

4. If it was up to me, I'd stick to the following:
- you can carry as much ammo as you can in loaded mags (real cap...or low/mid loaded with 33-34rnds...pistols loaded to real cap). No limit on the number of mags...take a backpack full of them for your squad if you want.
- no reloading on the recharging mags, grenades, 203's, etc...
- no highcaps
Simple...easy to "impress" on the players...easy to spot/enforce
Teams will figure out that it's advantageous to run similar weapons and share ammo pretty quick.

5. Have min 3 chrony's to get everyone through sucks to wait in line for ages to get chronied when you're trying to prep for an OP.
- guys are bringing more than one rifle and it takes time to chrony all those line up, three or more stations (just like a bank line up).
- Guys should walk up with their weapons and empty mags....10-12rnds of 0.20 are then loaded by game control and then their weapons are chronied. The rifles that pass are noted.
- Wolfpack have a good system where they have a card that is signed off with your name, your chrono'd weapons and it's copied onto your registration sheet. You have to keep that card on you for the game and be ready to display it to game control upon request. For any dispute, there's a record of what you were permitted to use...but diputes are rare, because everyone knows that every gun on the field has passed chrony. Any discrepancies are quickly checked by an on-the-spot chrony with 0.20's and dealt with right then and there.
- Sorry...but black zip ties are silly. In my gear bag I typically have at least a dozen or so zip ties that I use for general sh*t. An honest player isn't going to take a hot gun on the field...and the gun card system avoids any discrepancies.

6. Noobs/Newbs/Whatever
- As long as the game is open and not regulated by some other mechanism (i.e. invite only, pre-vetted, vouched, min previous games, etc...) you can't get away from the guy who shows up to such an event, 24hr milsim/BW/etc..., as his first game...or his first game in a long time.
- It's utopic to buddy them up or put them under the wing of other guys (this is not a direct shot at your plan Brian M.)...but for games of this magnitude it's not a realistic expectation to put on the "vets". Any pairing up should be well in day is too late. You can be assured that the "vets" have put a lot of time, money and effort into prep'ing for the event. Or the 18yr old who paid $60-100+ and traveled 2+ hours to walk onto the field with a rifle should take a bit of initiative to sort themselves out so they actually have mags, batteries and some sense of tactics when the horn goes.
- Please no Newb-tags...
- it's essentially April...BW is in July (d'oh...sooner than I originally thought)...3 months out...there's still lots of time for someone to un-noob themselves. Hell, if those persons make a good effort to get out to as many games as they can...they'll probably get more time in than the "vets" by Sept. Encourage other game hosts to run some games similar to the "mil-sim" style/ get guys working with a command stucture and different load out rules. Doesn't have to remove the "fun" games...but if the mil-sim organizers aren't working with the other game organizers, they're missing a huge opportunity to make their own events so much better.
- I'm all for helping guys out. F*ck, I've given a guy the belt off my pants once just so he could participate at a CAPS event (and the quick little bugger beat me...). But for "big/serious" events...each and every participant has to go into it with an appreciation that the expectation levels are very high and they'd better be ready to run or get left behind.

7. From what I see of BW3, there seems to be quite a bit of other playing area added to what we played for Op Broadsword. I suspect that there will be several objectives set outside the building so being "crammed in a hallway with a bunch of trigger happy campers" won't be the only option for guys who don't want that. As long as game control weight the objectives can work. Even closing off buildings (or parts of) as they are "destroyed" can hugely shift a game and force people to move.

8. Blackrain....I strongly suggest that you get out to a couple of Brian M's FTF games. He runs a tight ship and has been running rules that work well with mil-sim games.

9. Scrap medic and wounding hit = dead. Dummies like me are too stupid to differentiate how many hits we're taking to armour vs. leg vs. whatever. Better off to avoid getting hit.

10. How to get "vets/more senior" members out to these games?
- Prove out that the play level of the great majority who will be attending will be held to the highest level. Trigger control, tactics, organization, command & control, etc.... If you have a ratio like Op Broadsword...they'll be there in a flash.
- Keep the mission objectives simple and clear. An example that was frustrating was the continually changing alliance of the partisans last year at seemed like every 5 min they were flipping allegiances and whatever they're alignment was, they were shooting as us. Keep it simple for us dummies.

Last edited by m102404; March 26th, 2009 at 11:14..
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Old March 26th, 2009, 14:26   #47
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Your 2 is pretty big... must be inflation.
Retired Freedom 35
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Old March 26th, 2009, 14:28   #48
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Wait 'till I dump a full dollar's worth...the Internets will fail...
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Old March 26th, 2009, 16:59   #49
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Last I checked, ammunition cans came in various sizes reflective of various calibers. many surplus stores in most areas carry several good condition cans for aprox. $5 to $20 depending on how much of a whore they are.

Draw up and cut a stencil, paint over the original copy with your own ammunition specification, and fill with bags of the appropriate ammunition - different BB weights(i.e. calibers) in different sized cans, obviously with a brand that will appease the masses. Scrap metal plates on the bottom inside adds to the weight and realizm, if required.

Canadian tire sells various plastic bins in different colors for usually less that $5 CAD each.

Place ammunition cans into plastic bin. Source scrap wood palettes (game hosts who build props are usually very resourceful and are able to find many of the items they need for free/low cost). Build carry handles out of nylon strap and attach securely to sides of palettes. Strap or bolt (your choice) plastic bin onto palette - you now have what would be considered a resupply drop skid similar to what would be dropped via airlift.

Said resupply skid can then be manoeuvred either by hand or by vehicle throughout your AO, with or without security elements. Talk about a HVT.

This was done before more times than one successfully in hosted Airsoft MilSim games, as thus is not considered a 'wild conceptual idea', but rather an attractive Game Element feature, particularly for those who are looking for as many real world MilSim elements that are generic in nature and compatible and feasible in Airsoft games. There's quite a list of those.
86 Tactics Change.

Last edited by lt_poncho; March 26th, 2009 at 17:08..
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Old March 26th, 2009, 17:56   #50
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Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
and here we go.. so many times the needs of a single individual start to modify the plans for 100.

It's simple.. if you don't want to comply with the conditions set for the game DON'T GO ... don't try to change them to suit you.

it is impossible to satisfy everyone..

for BBs you supply 1 weight . 25 for everyone .. that way everyone is on a even playing field... sure .. maybe your gun runs better on .28 and that is what I really like to run with..

Maybe your finely tuned sniper rifle will only feed .32 g depleted irridium discarding sabot guided bbs ... but in this theater of operation... WE DON'T HAVE THOSE

I think no one would whine if a diet of bastard BBs were offered.. ( well except VA.. maybe )
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
There would not be any .36 weights Everyone would use the same ammo ..

.25 for example .. or .20 ... whatever the point is if its controled and limited the ammo itself becomes the objective..

it could be possibe to allow different weights.. say for example in a box of supplied ammo there was 500 .25 bbs and 20 .36 ( or whatever )
You're excluding so many people with such attitude and BB weights.

This is not the army, where the ammo is supplied by the same person who supplies the gun. Armies gun = Armies ammo. My gun = my ammo.

To want a "large scale" game that runs 24 hours and then say EVERYONE must have the same BB weight eliminates sniper rifles as you say; there goes a major part of the realism because in real warfare there are snipers.

Now here's the problem, you are forcing people to use ammo that does not agree with their guns. Who is going to cover costs of damages if any by this? Owners choose their brands based on how they operate with their guns, excessive jamming can lead to major malfunctions from destruction of hop up units, nozzles, pistons, mechboxes and can really be devastating. If the game host is to supply all guns and thus damages to guns by guns being "picky" about their ammo tolerances than fine. But as said, my gun = my ammo choice.

Having "ammo dumps" and restricted access to them can be accomplished easily enough. Have a lockable ammo can as a requirement for the game for any member to participate. Have those ammo cans stored in a single box or several large boxes per team if required. This way, access to ammo can be cut off by enemy forces if they take over the "base" or location point of the ammo dump. It also keeps person stashes safe from theft or being lost and having the can clearly marked on who it belongs to would help. So no loose ammo is carried onto the field, but people CAN reload with out returning to staging area's, where the loss of most players happen. They get hot and tired from playing and return for water, snack and reload; get there and don't really feel like walking all the way back now that radio coms are giving bad news. Its unfortunate but true.

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Old March 26th, 2009, 19:19   #51
Brian McIlmoyle
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Originally Posted by Dracheous View Post
You're excluding so many people with such attitude and BB weights.

They get hot and tired from playing and return for water, snack and reload; get there and don't really feel like walking all the way back now that radio coms are giving bad news. Its unfortunate but true.
you know... it was an idea not a proclaimation.. I am not excluding anyone...

people may choose to not participate because it's too hard.. or they don't feel like doing something different..

The issue is..based on my experience in running HUNDREDS of games most players could care less about artificial game objectives.. Points.. cards objects .. what ever .. most people don't care.. they want to shoot and have opportunties to get kills.

the idea is to limit the commodities that enable that .. so people will fight over those commodities.

I know for a FACT that in every ammo restricted game I've ever run or participated in there were a lot of people who IGNORED the restriction with the excuse that "it affected my "style" of play" so basically they said "screw you .. and screw your rules I'll do what I want" This happens all the time and mostly people turn a blind eye on it. I've seen ON FILM people who hold themselves out as High Cap haters run by a camera hosing from a highcap in a game that specifically banned highcaps.

If the ammo is not controled people will not control themselves they will run highcaps..they will take ammmo onto the field.. they will do everything that is not allowed.

If you want to do a resource limited game then you have to actually limit the resources... Sure this may mean that your brand of ammo may not be used.. it may also mean that you have to shoot with non optimized weights.. but so will every one else.. so its all fair.

I did a game like this last fall.. sure it was a ZOMBIE game.. but still

I limited EVERY THING when the game started there were 3 guns on the field for 45 players and each of those guns had like 30 rounds..

People had to find guns, they had to find flashlights, they had to find ammo .. and when they did .. it was 20- 30 bbs or less at a time. and all the BBs were .20 .. you know what ... no one cared.. they were just damn glad to have something to shoot.

the stress that this caused was real.. the scrambling to find something to defend yourself was intense... the choices to attack or lay low was based on real threat assessments.. ( how many guns do we have.. how much ammo? how many medkits incase we take casualties? ) vs how many they have .. or do we think they have ...

It was by all accounts a great experience even though lots of people played all night with nothing more than a rubber knife.
Brian McIlmoyle
TTAC3 Director
CAPS Range Officer
Toronto Downtown Age Verifier


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