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Old March 17th, 2009, 15:42   #31
MadMorbius
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Sorry, there's another glaring point in this whole scenario. How exactly can you tell a firearm is loaded if it's sitting on a counter? That's why we have ACTS & PROVE.

At the end of the day, the ruling will be that all parties involved were acting "in good faith". Doesn't make it right.
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what if it model after his?
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Old March 17th, 2009, 16:17   #32
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And, predictably, the media won't touch this. It was a firearms call, and that outweighs everything. It's perfectly acceptable to violate someone's rights if there's a gun involved, legally owned, replica, imitation, or otherwise.
Well of COURSE! It's a GUN!

/crazy tone of voice
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Old March 17th, 2009, 16:18   #33
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If a weapon is un-attended on a counter you follow rule one; Treat every gun as if it were loaded.

Obviously the article has some holes that will most likely never be fleshed out. Even though the general public is not in the know on firearms I'd guess that call was made to the police as a result of a conflict with the tenant. Since none of us were there we can't say for sure what went down but the most logical step would be that this was not a call made for the good of the community but a stab in the back. Maybe deserved, maybe not.

Once the police were there and had verified it was only a toy they would have quizzed the tenant somewhat along these lines. Why do you have that? No reason. What are you going to do with it? Nothing, it's just there. After that type of exchange they'd have suggested that they take it along to prevent another false alarm.

I don't think the point of this thread should be to discuss the right and wrong of the police or society's phobia of weapons. There's thread after thread of that already on here.

I think we should keep this on topic of reasonable steps that members here can take to store and transport their gear so they are not on the receiving end of a situation like this.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 17:21   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danke View Post
If a weapon is un-attended on a counter you follow rule one; Treat every gun as if it were loaded.
Of course. But you don't make a statement via a call to the police that there's a loaded gun on the counter. It's no different than calling in a bomb threat.

"There's a bomb in your house"
"Really?"
"Oh yes. I saw it".
"You saw a bomb?"
"Well...no"
"Well, how do you know there's a bomb in my house?"
"How do I know there isn't?!?"
*police knocking on door*

Quote:
Obviously the article has some holes that will most likely never be fleshed out. Even though the general public is not in the know on firearms I'd guess that call was made to the police as a result of a conflict with the tenant. Since none of us were there we can't say for sure what went down but the most logical step would be that this was not a call made for the good of the community but a stab in the back. Maybe deserved, maybe not.
Then the individual who made the call should be charged for Mischief.

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Once the police were there and had verified it was only a toy they would have quizzed the tenant somewhat along these lines. Why do you have that? No reason. What are you going to do with it? Nothing, it's just there. After that type of exchange they'd have suggested that they take it along to prevent another false alarm.
The false alarm shouldn't have happened in the first place. There's no grounds to seize an item that is not illegal, where no crime was committed.

If your fire alarm goes off and the fire department shows up, they don't take away your smoke detector to prevent false alarms.

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I don't think the point of this thread should be to discuss the right and wrong of the police or society's phobia of weapons. There's thread after thread of that already on here.

I think we should keep this on topic of reasonable steps that members here can take to store and transport their gear so they are not on the receiving end of a situation like this.
I think the point of this thread is to illustrate how easy it is to have your rights abused simply because somebody tells the police you have an object in your house.

In my experience, "Reasonable Probably Grounds" needs a little more backing than a call from a technician who claims he saw something in your residence, particularly where the item seen, in and of itself, is not illegal to own. I suppose they checked the registry, saw that there was no record of restricted firearms at the residence and the homeowner has no valid RPAL, and raided the place based on that.

Pretty pitiful.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 17:55   #35
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You'd have to prove the intent to charge the caller with mischief, unless there was a pattern of fake calls that'd be tough to do.

Can't say about fire alarms but I know out in Vancouver if you have too many false alarms with your entry system you'll loose your permit and be fined.

Right now out West they're executing tons of warrants looking for grow ops in folk's houses. Along with the Police there are city bylaw folks. They gain entry, see there's no operation in the place but instead of leaving they proceed to search for building code infractions and if they find any they slap a vacate order on the place. That seems more draconian to me than this incident.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 19:51   #36
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You'd have to prove the intent to charge the caller with mischief, unless there was a pattern of fake calls that'd be tough to do.
Not at all. If it's obviously a toy gun, the caller ought to have known his actions would unnecessarily "obstruct, interrupt or interfere with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property."

Whether he did or did not know is irrelevant. A reasonable person should be able to gauge the implication of their actions in this regard, and that's how the law should look at it; if it were anything other than a firearms issue.


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Can't say about fire alarms but I know out in Vancouver if you have too many false alarms with your entry system you'll loose your permit and be fined.
Yes, you'll be fined and the fire department will no longer respond to alarms without secondary confirmation. That's not the same as pulling out your fire protection system. Regardless, it's metaphorical; no person should have to surrender property that is lawfully theirs, particularly where no real offense took place and there is no lawful grounds to call for its surrender.

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Right now out West they're executing tons of warrants looking for grow ops in folk's houses. Along with the Police there are city bylaw folks. They gain entry, see there's no operation in the place but instead of leaving they proceed to search for building code infractions and if they find any they slap a vacate order on the place. That seems more draconian to me than this incident.
I'm going to guess that you don't own firearms. If you did, you might find this incident a little more significant.

Let me put it this way - forget for a moment that a toy gun was involved; if you own something, lawfully, and the act of owning the article is not itself illegal, what business does law enforcement have to enter your premises, based on heresy evidence of a third party that your property simply exists, and then seize that legally owned property?

Owning a gun is not illegal. Owning a toy gun is not illegal. Owning a replica firearm is not illegal. Leaving a gun, real or otherwise, on a shelf when you are present in the home is not illegal. So WHY DID THE POLICE INVADE THIS PERSON'S HOME?

What law was potentially being violated that justified a search and seizure in the pursuance of fundamental justice as per section 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
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Old March 17th, 2009, 20:09   #37
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Like I stated before, my reasons for posting here is to deal with the storage and transport issues that some members might come encounter.

Personally I live in a place where guns are not demonized, and you can toss your gear into the box of a pickup, drive to a game stop for gas in BDUs and not have an eyebrow raised.

I am also aware that generalizing from self isn't going to help the members here that live in urban settings, rent houses or apartments and can have uninvited or unexpected guests enter their homes. Those are the people who should take reasonable precautions against becoming a target of this sort of action.

And no I do not think the Police should be able to kick in doors based on vague tips, but given the current climate in society I can't see that being a popular platform to run for office on.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 20:34   #38
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so pretty much what I'm getting here, is if I want to take it out I should lock my doors and close my blinds just like the other stuff I take out in my room. (Sorry for the inappropriate joke)

Is there anything about gun displays? I have a friend that has her hunting license and she says that they used to be able to have their guns on display in a locked case, I'm thinking about doing the same. Have then gun in a plexiglass case, mags seperatly with a trigger lock on the gun.

I'm going to ask my uncle who's a sergeant in the police about this next time I see him, so I can get some clarification.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 21:14   #39
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They're toys, so there's no rule against displaying them. The point has been made however that you should treat them like real firearms, stored safely out of view.

Why display something that will only increase the likelihood of leading to a break and enter and theft of those items?
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Old March 17th, 2009, 21:19   #40
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Why display something that will only increase the likelihood of leading to a break and enter and theft of those items?
Why have a big tv or a fancy car? there going to increase you chance of break-ins too.

I'm not worried about that however, I'm worried about the police having an issue with it being "improperly stored" and I want to display it because A) I think it looks nice and B) And depending on the gun (a M1911 in this case) is a work of art as you can see with RacingManiacs, so thus I'm going to display it.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 21:28   #41
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You asked for an opinion. I've been in this game since you were FOUR YEARS OLD. If you want to discard the advice that's being given, go for it.

If your TV was a fucking GUN I wouldn't display my TV either, but it's not a TV, we're not talking about televisions, and we're talking about GUNS. Realistic, one to one replicas of automatic handguns and rifles.

Possession of replicas is not illegal. There are no laws governing their storage.

Displaying them makes them an obvious target. People talk, and this may lead to your house being targeted by criminals looking to steal your replica firearms. You trust your family, and you trust your friends. But do you trust your friend's friends or your family's friends?

A news article airing on television describing the theft of "dozens of replica firearms" will not air in our favor.

So ultimately, do whatever you want but dont come bitching and whining here if and when your prized toy gets stolen.

Lastly, you're a MINOR, and you shouldn't have the fucking thing in the first place. So really, its likely not YOUR house, not YOUR belongings that would be affected by a B&E, and you should check with your PARENTS to see how they feel about it.

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Why have a big tv or a fancy car? there going to increase you chance of break-ins too.

I'm not worried about that however, I'm worried about the police having an issue with it being "improperly stored" and I want to display it because A) I think it looks nice and B) And depending on the gun (a M1911 in this case) is a work of art as you can see with RacingManiacs, so thus I'm going to display it.
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Last edited by MadMorbius; March 17th, 2009 at 21:33..
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Old March 17th, 2009, 21:40   #42
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Originally Posted by MadMorbius View Post
You asked for an opinion. I've been in this game since you were FOUR YEARS OLD. If you want to discard the advice that's being given, go for it.

If your TV was a fucking GUN I wouldn't display my TV either, but it's not a TV, we're not talking about televisions, and we're talking about GUNS. Realistic, one to one replicas of automatic handguns and rifles.

Possession of replicas is not illegal. There are no laws governing their storage.

Displaying them makes them an obvious target. People talk, and this may lead to your house being targeted by criminals looking to steal your replica firearms. You trust your family, and you trust your friends. But do you trust your friend's friends or your family's friends?

A news article airing on television describing the theft of "dozens of replica firearms" will not air in our favor.

So ultimately, do whatever you want but dont come bitching and whining here if and when your prized toy gets stolen.

Lastly, you're a MINOR, and you shouldn't have the fucking thing in the first place. So really, its likely not YOUR house, not YOUR belongings that would be affected by a B&E, and you should check with your PARENTS to see how they feel about it.
QFT. I agree 100%
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Old March 17th, 2009, 21:55   #43
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Sorry about all that, I meant that I am planning on doing that in the future. So in fact, no, I do not own an airsoft gun, and yes, I do live with a parent and they are fine with it as long as I store them properly. So thus, I want to find out how people store theirs. I'm not ignoring what you said, I agree that they should be stored properly, but they can also be displayed properly too, ie: away from windows in a locked case and put away when anyone un-trustworthy comes over.

I'm not trying to patronize you but I just don't believe that it's going to cause someone to break into my house.

Just a last thing, I'm sorry I misspoke before, I was just trying to show my point, lets just drop it and forget about it.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 22:11   #44
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Alright, so if I were to do drills with my AEG in my room and that a neighbor decides to look into my house by the window and sees my AEG, my house could be stormed? Ouch. I mean, that's sure nobody should to it in an highly windowed area to be safe, but still it's kinda... stressing.

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Old March 17th, 2009, 23:51   #45
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The problem with keeping them on display at least for airsoft is that they look real. And if I have an AK 47 or a M4 with a 203 on it, people will not know its an replica. They will think " oh no there is a killer with automatic weapons and is planning a school shooting." People are absolutely correct to call police when they believe a crime is being committed, in fact they are obliged to or else they themselves are commiting a crime. Its up to owners to be responsible about how they store and diplay firearms or even toys that look like firearms.
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