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Old March 9th, 2009, 13:26   #1
Jbone 11 11
 
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Range and accuracy

So I've got a few airsoft games under my belt now and have constantly been finding myself in positions where I have the mother of all sight pictures on the other team but they're "just" out of my effective range!

My question is, is there any way to increase your range and or accuracy on airsoft guns with out jacking the Fps(i.e. increasing the hop up)? Rifled barrels or something to that effect.... I know from my paintball experience that recent development in barrel technologies have had some pretty significant results in this regard...wondering if the same applies to airsoft.

Thanks,
J
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Old March 9th, 2009, 13:29   #2
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Edit: updated info:

Tightbore Barrel, Airsoft Research Syndicate (ARS) Airseal hop-up rubber and a shredder's concave spacer
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Old March 9th, 2009, 13:56   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbone 11 11 View Post
So I've got a few airsoft games under my belt now and have constantly been finding myself in positions where I have the mother of all sight pictures on the other team but they're "just" out of my effective range!

My question is, is there any way to increase your range and or accuracy on airsoft guns with out jacking the Fps(i.e. increasing the hop up)? Rifled barrels or something to that effect.... I know from my paintball experience that recent development in barrel technologies have had some pretty significant results in this regard...wondering if the same applies to airsoft.

Thanks,
J
Heavier BBs. Really also depends on what you call effective range too, outlining the distance your BBs (and the weight) get to and how far away your targets are. If you are running a stock gun and are using 0.20g BBs, knock it up to 0.25g BBs, your effective range will increase.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 16:12   #4
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Ok cool... thats deffo a start! As for the heavier weight BB's, Im kind of restricted to .20 at moment. I play in Italy and they're pretty adamant about using .20 and not more then 1 joule (100mps). But maybe I'll sneak some .25's in there ; )
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Old March 9th, 2009, 16:26   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbone 11 11 View Post
Ok cool... thats deffo a start! As for the heavier weight BB's, Im kind of restricted to .20 at moment. I play in Italy and they're pretty adamant about using .20 and not more then 1 joule (100mps). But maybe I'll sneak some .25's in there ; )
What velocity is your gun shooting at? The fps will drop but the Joules will stay around the same.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 16:32   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbone 11 11 View Post
Ok cool... thats deffo a start! As for the heavier weight BB's, Im kind of restricted to .20 at moment. I play in Italy and they're pretty adamant about using .20 and not more then 1 joule (100mps). But maybe I'll sneak some .25's in there ; )
Changing the weight of the BB doesn't change the amount of energy the gun puts out. The heavier BB will just hold the energy longer.
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Old March 10th, 2009, 02:57   #7
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I was under the assumption that Joule correlate directly with Fps or in my case Mps (meters per sec.). Is that not the case?

As for what velocity Im firing at now, based on the above assumption, I thought i was some where in the 100mps range (approx 328 fps... I think... thats what google says anyway ; ) )
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Old March 10th, 2009, 03:00   #8
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It does correlate with velocity, but also in combination with the mass of the projectile. It's a function of all three variables.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 19:48   #9
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Originally Posted by ILLusion View Post
It does correlate with velocity, but also in combination with the mass of the projectile. It's a function of all three variables.
Hi everyone, I am new from Southern Ontario.

Disclaimer: None of the below statements have been logically proven, and a margin of error exists. If you do not agree with the information posted, please feel free to debate. Please do not take this as an insult. I voice this objectively simply to make typing this easier. Sorry for necromancing a 1 year 8 month 27 day old topic.

Actually, since the projectile in question has a velocity much much lower than 299792458 mps (c) and a wavefunction with wavelength much much smaller than we really care about in terms of uncertainty, the formula for kinetic energy is simply
E=1/2*m*v^2.
so, 1=1/2*1/5000*100^2

However, after diligent research, I have found that kinetic energy actually tends to increase with BB weight. This may seem counter intuitive, since each pull of the spring uses the same amount of energy, but according to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy must always increase, so there will always be an energy inefficiency. the efficiency simply increases when using a heavier bb. I have a theory for why this is. When the spring is released, it exerts a force which varies according to Hookes law, but more importantly, it is accelerating its own mass, the piston, all the air in the cylinder, and lastly, the lowly bb. E=F*d, so the more massive the projectile, the greater proportion of the force from the spring it gets, so the more energy is imparted onto it. In an ideal system, the "inefficiency" in this case would actually be the kinetic energy of the piston, air, and spring. The energy equivalence theory only works in an ideal system with a massless spring, massless piston, massless, ideal gas, and massive BB.

Do I have evidence to back this up? well, yes I do. While this is not directly relevant to the present comparison, and other factors(bb quality etc) may be involved, I have found that the velocity .12g is, as a function of velocity(fps) with .2g, f(v1)=1.075*v1+41. If the energy were constant, then it should be f(v1)=sqrt(5/3)*v1 (yes, I realize there is an intersection at about 69 fps, but keep in mind that my sample contained no elements less than 210fps, and that the function is an average linear trendline) . additionally, I actually calculated the energy of the samples, and the energy (joules) of .12g as a function of .2g is f(e1)= 0.791e1+0.0735, clearly less than of .2's(very strong correlation too). I will do a similar study for .2g vs .25g when convenient.

As for the question of range, I will assume that you are referring to range with hop up set for flat trajectory, at angle of 0, at height 1.2 meters. Honestly, this is a little beyond my scope, but I'll try at least.
Hop up is caused by the Magnus effect, derived from the Bernoulli effect. The amount of lift created is described by F=S(ωv) where ω is vectored angular velocity, v is vectored linear velocity, S is dependent on the average of the air resistance coefficient across the surface of the object, and denotes the vector cross product. Omega can be adjusted, while S is dependent on BB, while v will regress over time described by F=ρ*v^2*C(d)*A. A, ρ, C(d) are constant, so that leaves v^2. I can't go any further without a good grasp of calculus, so I'll simply state my unscientific opinion. I believe that under a certain velocity, the lighter bb will go further, while over it, when v^2 exceeds some variable k*v+b, the heavier bb will prevail.

Good to be here B).
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Old December 7th, 2010, 21:15   #10
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appa609,

Did you notice that the question was asked in march of 2009, almost two years ago. By the standards of this forum, your post is considered a necro post, which is a minor offense. Since you are new to this forum I highly recommend that you read the FAQs before an admin directs you to them (more specifically the forum rules - http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=53202).
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Old December 7th, 2010, 21:24   #11
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What the fuck did I just read???
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Old December 7th, 2010, 21:30   #12
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I think he's trying to describe glide speed, too slow and you drop out of the sky, too fast and you fight your own turbulence.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 04:35   #13
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Heavier BB's keep momentum longer.
It also has to do with the fact that every BB has an optimal relative speed of around 320fps. That's why you get amazing range and accuracy at 420fps with .30s, but accuracy DECREASES at 470fps.

And with some guns, Heavier BB's may actually be firing at a higher joule rating than lighter BB's, however that's simply due to the fact that it's in the barrel longer since it's harder to accelerate. And as long as there's pressure behind it, it will continue to accelerate. This is especially common in gas guns, whereas a .20g BB will be shot at 1.34j, but a .28g BB will be shot at 1.55j
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:34   #14
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Italy is limited to 328 fps@0,20g (= 1 Joule).
This graph will show you that 0,25g BBs are slightly better here:
http://msed.bbbastard.com/ATP/07-b-06.htm

With 400 fps@0,20g (= 1,49 Joule) - this is what we use here,
0,25g BBs are also the best choice for range.
http://msed.bbbastard.com/ATP/07-b-08.htm

You can find lotso of other things and mythbreakers in the ATP:
http://msed.bbbastard.com/ATP/07-b-08.htm

For CQB (range max. 30m) I recommend 0,20g.

Last edited by godwin; December 8th, 2010 at 07:41..
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Old December 8th, 2010, 13:13   #15
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.25 are hardly the best for range..

That would go to .28 within the 330-415 area

Quote:
Originally Posted by appa609 View Post
Hi everyone, I am new from Southern Ontario.

Disclaimer: None of the below statements have been logically proven, and a margin of error exists. If you do not agree with the information posted, please feel free to debate. Please do not take this as an insult. I voice this objectively simply to make typing this easier. Sorry for necromancing a 1 year 8 month 27 day old topic.

Actually, since the projectile in question has a velocity much much lower than 299792458 mps (c) and a wavefunction with wavelength much much smaller than we really care about in terms of uncertainty, the formula for kinetic energy is simply
E=1/2*m*v^2.
so, 1=1/2*1/5000*100^2

However, after diligent research, I have found that kinetic energy actually tends to increase with BB weight. This may seem counter intuitive, since each pull of the spring uses the same amount of energy, but according to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy must always increase, so there will always be an energy inefficiency. the efficiency simply increases when using a heavier bb. I have a theory for why this is. When the spring is released, it exerts a force which varies according to Hookes law, but more importantly, it is accelerating its own mass, the piston, all the air in the cylinder, and lastly, the lowly bb. E=F*d, so the more massive the projectile, the greater proportion of the force from the spring it gets, so the more energy is imparted onto it. In an ideal system, the "inefficiency" in this case would actually be the kinetic energy of the piston, air, and spring. The energy equivalence theory only works in an ideal system with a massless spring, massless piston, massless, ideal gas, and massive BB.

Do I have evidence to back this up? well, yes I do. While this is not directly relevant to the present comparison, and other factors(bb quality etc) may be involved, I have found that the velocity .12g is, as a function of velocity(fps) with .2g, f(v1)=1.075*v1+41. If the energy were constant, then it should be f(v1)=sqrt(5/3)*v1 (yes, I realize there is an intersection at about 69 fps, but keep in mind that my sample contained no elements less than 210fps, and that the function is an average linear trendline) . additionally, I actually calculated the energy of the samples, and the energy (joules) of .12g as a function of .2g is f(e1)= 0.791e1+0.0735, clearly less than of .2's(very strong correlation too). I will do a similar study for .2g vs .25g when convenient.

As for the question of range, I will assume that you are referring to range with hop up set for flat trajectory, at angle of 0, at height 1.2 meters. Honestly, this is a little beyond my scope, but I'll try at least.
Hop up is caused by the Magnus effect, derived from the Bernoulli effect. The amount of lift created is described by F=S(ωv) where ω is vectored angular velocity, v is vectored linear velocity, S is dependent on the average of the air resistance coefficient across the surface of the object, and denotes the vector cross product. Omega can be adjusted, while S is dependent on BB, while v will regress over time described by F=ρ*v^2*C(d)*A. A, ρ, C(d) are constant, so that leaves v^2. I can't go any further without a good grasp of calculus, so I'll simply state my unscientific opinion. I believe that under a certain velocity, the lighter bb will go further, while over it, when v^2 exceeds some variable k*v+b, the heavier bb will prevail.

Good to be here B).
Yea. I like shooting airsoft guns too.
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