|February 4th, 2009, 02:41||#1|
KART/ECHO1 EBR mini review
Since there is a pile of information out there already I am just going to clear up a couple things that bothered me before I bought it, things I had a hard time finding out online. So really quick and dirty and without pics since lots can be found through google.
First a note, ECHO1 is a rebrand of KART EBR's, AGM is NOT the same. AGM have a non-standard hopup design and even cheaper internals.
Okay, so to start its all cast potmetal, no CNC, no 6065 aluminum like G&P or KA. On that note its still really solid, zero wobble anywhere, and weighs as much as a brick. In my book pretty good since it retails for US$125-250.
There is one exception to the no wobble rule, the front handguard. The one that holds the battery in and is screwed onto the lower frame. It wobbles quite a bit and I really don't trust a 9x2mm piece of low grade steel to hold the battery on and I will be gluing the handguard into place and rerouting the wires to a PEQ.
I heard all these comments about it not having a TM hopup, using some messed up inner barrel, and having a slightly non standard mechbox. Well it is a direct TM clone down to all but one detail (explained later.) You could drop a TM M14 assembly into the frame and it will be a perfect fit, I know it will because I dropped in my TM M14 sniper setup into the EBR chassis and it fit fine. Only thing to worry about is the wiring since the EBR is wired forward and a normal M14 is wired to the rear. All external wiring so easy to fix even without a soldering iron.
The mini connectors they use have less metal in them than normal mini connectors I have seen, made one smoke a bit when I plugged in a large 9.6V battery. Replaced with deans.
Hopup is indeed a TM clone, no worrying about getting a TM hopup and inner barrel (though a G&P M14 hopup is a lot easier to get.) It seems to have a standard brass inner barrel, I guess 6.08mm, SOCOM length (440mm?) The hopup rubber is garbage, replace it with a good one when you can.
Motor is crap and can barely turn over an Ms110 spring, label on it is the same as a CYMA I had, the English on it reads: "Chaoli Mirco-motor machinery co ltd." Motor is soldered on.
There are two tiny little bolts that hold the back end on the gun, the part with the grip and the far rear rail bit. None of this needs to be taken apart to get the mechbox out of the gun so I will be epoxying it all together to make it more rigid (except the slither stock obviously.)
Flash hider is +14mm, so get an adapter or make sure whatever you want to put on it is +14mm, same threading as PTW's and G&P outer barrels.
Charging handle sounds a little higher pitched than my TM, probably due to cheaper metal, though it still put ANY other AEG to shame for charging handle noise.
Inside the mechbox it is all TM standard except for one detail. They managed to redesign the shell to accept standard ver.2/3/6 gears instead of the ver.7 specific gears needed for a TM gun. It has a full sized spur gear inside instead of TM's undersized spur gear. This means more torque. On the note of gears, the gears are in fact not xti/xyt that many guns have (STAR included) but are the same as was in my AKS-74U CYMA, they are branded www.Gear.net.cn and I had the axle crumble off of the spur gear on the set in my CYMA AK so I really recommend new gears. The shimming was HORRIBLE and I could move the bevel gear almost a mm from outside the mechbox. Bushings are solid brass. I dropped in Modify dual oil channel steel bushings and SystemA highspeed gears and I have one of the thickest shims on each gear plus 1-3 thin ones. Mechbox tolerances are horrible.
The piston is a white nylon one, really soft, can almost scratch it with my finger nail. Piston head is same material, ported. Cylinder is a non-taper solid brass, same length as a standard ver.2/3/6 piston where as the TM M14 piston is a mm or two shorter than standard. Cylinder head is a standard TM type, nylon with brass tube. Nozzle is crap, airseal is crap, dropped in a Prometheus and its great. Replaced piston with Guarder polycarb, piston head with Sorbo MASK, installed Sorbo pad onto a solid stainless Modify double o-ring seal cylinder head, cylinder is a Modify non-ported standard stainless chrome plated.
Spring guide is brass non-bearing, spring is a silver coloured linear spring. Spring is not fixed into the nozzle, comes out freely.
Tappet plate is clear plastic, don't know what type but I can put dents in it with my fingernail, replaced with Guarder enhanced.
I will be using the stock hopup unit, seems fine to me going over it with a magnifying glass. Waiting for a 6.03mm tightbore to come in this week so I wont be reassembling it to test just yet.
Before I took it apart, it fed fine with the stock 280rnd hicaps, my TM 440rnd hicap, TM lowcaps, Deep Fire lowcaps, and King Arms 70rnd lowcaps (110rnd mags suck so I don't own any.)
Any questions or comments, post em here and I will try to answer em. If you PM me with a question or comment and I think its relevant I will post it here with my answer without your username, just in case your shy or something.
|February 4th, 2009, 04:01||#2|
Red Wine & Adderall
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Excellent indepth fine tooth combing of the internals of the Kart EBR, its good to know that it is actually even less than what I expected, but with an investment of anywhere from 100-150 dollars it would become internally sound.
I think its very interesting that they were able to change the inside of the v7 to accept standard ration v2/3/6 gears. Makes parts more easily obtainable.
About the motor though, you stated that it was soldered on, any issues with its removal at all? The M14 is not really my area when it comes to mechboxes so for all I know a soldered on motor is nornal, but probly isnt, it just doesnt sound right, so Im assuming its not spose to be soldered. So if you were to replace the motor would you require to solder it on as well? That could make for a really annoying time.
"Its only a little bit on fire"
|February 4th, 2009, 08:12||#3|
A TM M14 does indeed have standard connectors for the motor tabs. Many cheap Chinese clone brands solder the motors on as it saves them that much money. To put on motor tabs just snag some Prometheus gold tabs from airsoftparts.ca and stick em on, dead simple. The only problem might be removing all of the solder from the motor tabs. I have had some problems with guns before where there is a tad of solder left and the motor tabs snap because of the extra thickness. But since the motor is total garbage and should be replaced anyway, just toss in a TM EG700 or EG1000 and get some motor pins then your good to go since TM motors don't have solder residue on em.
On that note, I tested the gun before upgrading with several batteries and the results are kinda funny.
7.2V 4200mAh NiMh - 9rps
8.4V 4200mAh NiMh - 9rps
9.6V 3600mAh NiMh - 9rps
10.8V 2000mAh NiMh - 9rps
12V 1300mAh NiCd - 10rps
From 9.6V and up the mini connectors on it where smoking a bit. It was either the mini connectors restricting amperage or the motor really was just maxed out. My later tests with deans and 12awg wire showed that it really was the motor, though the crappy connectors didn't help.
So for CAD$400-500 for a base gun, plus CAD$150-200 in parts from airsoftparts.ca and/or HK, you can have a nice solid EBR. Considering the cheapest main brand EBR is US$600 + a TM M14 or US$1200 complete, this is a really good option for those without the cash. Though remember you get what you pay for.
Last edited by LUTNIT; February 4th, 2009 at 08:21..
|February 10th, 2009, 18:24||#4|
Looks like to save material KART decided to make the inner barrel smaller. Since making it a tightbore would be more expensive they reduced the wall thickness. I am trying to install a tightbore and nothing I have will fit down the outer barrel. I took my caliper and found the outer diameter of several barrels.
JBU - 8.54mm
Prometheus - 8.64mm
KART EBR stock barrel - 8.21mm
The stock barrel fits really snug and since I can't drill out the outer barrel I now need to buy an aftermarket outer barrel just to install a tightbore.
Just stay away from KART/ECHO1, they are shit.
|February 23rd, 2009, 23:23||#5|
Yet another update...
So I finally got the G&P outer barrel in so I could reassemble the gun. The screw that holds the magwel base on with the nub that holds the front of the mag in (those who have worked on TM type M14's know what this is) goes INTO the mechbox and the thicker Guarder enhanced tappet plate I installed jammed up on it. Snapped the tappet plate in half. I did some tests and it turns out even if it wasn't jammed it probably wouldn't have worked because the tappet plate was too THICK for the space inside the mechbox shell. So the area around the gears is a lot wider than a TM, I have two of the thicket shims on each gear plus some thinner ones to get it shimmed right, yet a TM spec tappet plate is too wide.
I also tried to put in a Guarder steel T-selector as the stock one is made from even softer metal than the TM one and I installed aftermarket solid gears (instead of the hollow sector gear that is stock in TM and this gun that doesn't rub against the T-selector.) Turns out they decided to change that part from standard TM as well, the Guarder lever doesn't fit with the stock mechbox shell.
Long and short of it, stay the fuck away from this piece of shit EBR, get a G&P or King Arms. Parts I have replaced due to shit quality are:
-stock pipes (not replaced but need to be with G&P steel ones)
At this point I am looking at getting a reinforced mechbox shell to fit things properly. That would make the only mechbox related parts that are stock ECHO1/KART to be the trigger, safety, motor mount, and the springs on the outside of the mechbox.
|March 11th, 2009, 03:36||#7|
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Thank god you posted this up... I was looking into one and googled the shit out of it and couldn't find a decent review...
I was trying to watch the pocket book, due the the current status of our economy, but I guess the only way to go is a TM.
I haven't heard a lot about the CA make, that will be my next couple hours of google time, I guess...
Thanks for saving me the time, effort and tears by, buying this gun...
I hope it turns out in the long run for you...
|March 11th, 2009, 06:06||#8|
Yeah, I got my EBR running nice and smooth now, only took over $200 in parts and probably 40+ hours of work.
TM or bust. CA uses a partial clone of the G&G M14 which I have also owned in the past, it was great for shredding hopup rubbers at total random and without cause and melting trigger contacts mid game so the gun stopped firing at all. Toss in a whack of proprietary parts that are hard to fine compared to TM parts (which a half dozen aftermarket manufacturers make) and its just best to get a TM.
|March 12th, 2009, 20:09||#9|
asexual lumbricus terrestris
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edmonton west
Jesus, I was close to making a trade... Thanks man, your a lifesaver!
|March 13th, 2009, 16:04||#11|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Regina, SK
I should also Share some of my experiences with a Kart EBR.
- I installed a v7 nozzle from modify in the gun. When I test fired the gun the nozzle jammed in the hopup and was literally ripped right off of the tappet plate.
- I completely agree with the poor tolerances with the mechbox. I have never used so many shims on a mechbox.
Basically it is the most frustrating rifle I have ever worked on. I would agree that the cost of getting this rifle up to speed is not worth the time and money. Better off investing in a high quality rifle right from the start.
Last edited by Shlappy; March 13th, 2009 at 19:22..
|March 13th, 2009, 16:30||#12|
asexual lumbricus terrestris
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edmonton west
Yeah Jughead lol. After having that TM deal crash right through I thought I would look at scoobyrs'. Not that he's a bad guy or anything but it would have been a massive mistake XD
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