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A possible solution to the dreaded cool down effect in GBB's?

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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:31   #1
akamikeee
 
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A possible solution to the dreaded cool down effect in GBB's?

I’m not sure if this idea has been brought up before in the discussion of cool down effects in gas guns but this was an idea I had and wonder if it would be possible. This is only a thought on my limited knowledge and understanding of gases and pressures, so the following maybe a complete shot in the dark, so I was hoping anyone with more knowledge in these matters could add their input.

HPA doesn’t have the cool down effect as CO2 does. However I’m not sure of how HPA and propane/green gas compare to each other and I am possing the following questions without that knowledge. I have noticed there are CO2 chargers with regulators that can be put on CO2 tanks to fill airsoft grenades. Would it be possible to use one (for example a Madbull charger) on a HPA tank and bring the output PSI to that of propane/green gas and use it to fill a GBB magazine, and would it function? Also any speculation on whether or not the performance would be better than say of propane/green gas. Could this be a way to increase performance in “gas in magazine” automatic assault rifles and standard semi-automatic GBB pistols?

If anyone has any information or thoughts on this matter please share.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:39   #2
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it would not work cause gbb mags uses liquid gasses to operate and hpa stands for "high pressure air" there will be no liquid in the mag, the gun will probably just do blaaaaap! BUT! if you wire the hpa tank directly to the magazine (with a regulator of course) i think it would work! correct me if i'm wrong on this!
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:41   #3
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Definitely not a good idea injecting HPA into a mag filled with propane. Air contains 20% oxygen which still isn't a heck of a lot of O2 at 120psi, but it would be about 8x more than you could get in with atmospheric pressure air.

Setting reg pressure to much higher than 200psi could start to become quite dangerous. Our mags do not have anything close to the engineering and quality control of paintball bottles. Unreg'd CO2 adaptors present a significant hazard if they are used to push liquid CO2 into a GBB mag.

Pushing in reg'd 120psi CO2 would not give much of a constant pressure boost after the first shot or two. It would be vented in the first shot or two and you'd be back to the same propane evaporation system (CO2 is not soluble in propane).
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:45   #4
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I’m thinking say if only HPA was used and no mixing of it with propane.
I was thinking if the PSI would be around the 100 when the gas would be loaded into the mag.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:48   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akamikeee View Post
Iím thinking say if only HPA was used and no mixing of it with propane.
Your first problem is preventing the mag from exploding from the pressure.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:50   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Styrak View Post
Your first problem is preventing the mag from exploding from the pressure.
That's why I was thinking if there was a way to bring down the PSI from the HPA tank through some type of a regulator.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:54   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akamikeee View Post
That's why I was thinking if there was a way to bring down the PSI from the HPA tank through some type of a regulator.
And therefore taking the realism out of airsoft. You'd end up looking like you have a paintball gun strapped to your gear, plus it'd be very unwieldy to draw fast when needed. I more than most others rely heavily on my G19 even when out in the bush, and am very confident in my knowing how to use it, often taking out guys armed with AEGs. In winter or cooler games, I just go with a spring MK23, some back up is better than nothing.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:55   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akamikeee View Post
That's why I was thinking if there was a way to bring down the PSI from the HPA tank through some type of a regulator.
But you were saying just the mag, no bottle. In that case it would be almost useless. GBB mags work because they get charged with liquid propane, which evaporates into gas to equalize the pressure in the mag when the gun is shot, therefore maintaining the same pressure.

If you had the mag filled up with HPA (or LPHPA as said, lulz) you would only get one or two shots.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:55   #9
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Then you don't have enough gas in the mag for more than a couple shots.

Greengas blowback systems are evolving...

May I ask what gun you're using that you've noticed cool-down with?

I've used a TONNE of GBB's and I only find cool-down to be present in poorly maintained and low-quality GBB's.

Use a TM or a KSC gun and you wont notice it at all.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:56   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemegacool View Post
if you wire the hpa tank directly to the magazine (with a regulator of course) i think it would work! correct me if i'm wrong on this!

I got the idea when I was thinking of how you would run say an escort mp5 off of an external gas source with a regulator. Although instead of having the gas run through the mag it runs through the actual gun itself.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 19:59   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amos View Post
Then you don't have enough gas in the mag for more than a couple shots.

Greengas blowback systems are evolving...

May I ask what gun you're using that you've noticed cool-down with?

I've used a TONNE of GBB's and I only find cool-down to be present in poorly maintained and low-quality GBB's.

Use a TM or a KSC gun and you wont notice it at all.
I haven't actually experienced it in an actual gun. This was more in the way of abstract thought, and also how propane is affected by cold temperatures in the winter, or a WA M4 shooting on fully automatic may experience a cool down from all the gas venting.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 20:18   #12
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A few of the Warmongers went the route of trying to use the mag with HPA, pressure I think around 100-120fps, in a KJW M700 sniper rifle. Failed miserably, as said above only a couple shots then it went dead.

I KNOW that some guys in the US have set up 600fps KJW M700s with an external tank, and word is they work great, but for a GBB............ no way. MP5.......... MAYBE, but since you can just get an AEG MP5............ you then enter into the land of 'Why bother?'
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Old January 5th, 2009, 20:55   #13
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The only way you could get a consistent and reliable pressure running through the system using just HPA, is if you had a direct remove attached to your pistol or mag at all times, using an tank as your reservoir.

However, this gives you two problems:

1) If you have the line running in to your magazine, good luck switching magazines when you run out of ammo

2) If you have the line running in to your pistol, you will need to redesign a completely new gas release system, as it is no longer running through the magazine.

The "easiest" method is direct remote in to the magazine, but then you run in to the problem of being stuck with just one magazine for the round.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 21:38   #14
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Well the problem is in order for something to contain HPA in Canada, it has to have a TC Stamp and be hydro statically tested in order for the "container" not to blow up. It would be extremely expensive in order to design this new magazine, plus the testing for each mag, and depending what they are made of, they need to be re tested every 5 years(this means china made anything would be a no go unless you like death + illegal). BTW, I probably wouldn't want to drop them either... The practicality of said item and cost wouldn't even be worth considering. The smallest HPA I've ever seen is 13 cubic inches, and those are well over $100 and custom made.

You would probably be better off taping hand warmers to GBB, yeah it look dumb, but hey no cool down, or at least less.

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Old January 5th, 2009, 23:22   #15
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Here's an twist you can consider.

High flow valves actually help prevent the effects of cooldown by allowing more gas out of the mag, so the gun does shoot more reliably. But the downside is more gas being let out not only empties out the mag faster, but also increases gas cooldown (thereby expending even more gas).

I experimented with this a lot back when I had a Beretta 93R. Firing rapid bursts with it using the stock valves created enough cooldown that halfway through the mag the BBs would land about 5 feet in front of you (it was really pathetic). With wide open ports on the valve (basically taking out 2 of the 4 "sides" from the existing ports) the gun cycled and fire pretty consistently until it was out of gas, unfortunately it often wasn't able to fire off all the BBs (~38 BBs).

But point in case, you can fire off a limited number of shots without cooldown using highflow, which is great if you're using real cap loads. I know its not for everyone, some people still play with hicaps and absolutely want 30 shots out of their pistol... but for those of us who go for realism over munchkinism, it's a great solution.

Something to consider.
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