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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:30   #16
BloodSport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Again, company policy with no legal basis in Canadian firearm law. More for any perceived possibility of liability by WM's lawyers. Instead of quoting WM, I recommend you to read through the entirety Criminal Code, the Firearms Act, and search through all regulations enabled by said statutes and all provincial and territorial bylaw databases for anything contrary to what I've said.

Reconn3 shouldn't let company policy dictate how he raise his kids.
Sigh so since your refering to Canadian Firearm Law in general now:

Simple one:
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/default_e.asp
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/airguns_e.asp
"4. Air guns that are neither firearms nor replicas

These are air guns that are not powerful enough to be classified as firearms and that do not resemble a real firearm closely enough to be considered a replica. An example would be a harmless air gun made out of clear plastic or a device that is obviously a child’s toy.

Like replicas, they generally fall within the definition of an “imitation firearm” and are subject to some penalties under the Criminal Code if used to commit a crime." - here it specifically refers to a child's toy. Yes hopefully his child will not try to commit a crime, but in todays world of soccer moms, commiting a crime could be something as simple as him pointing it at a friend in his house and said friend telling his parents who react badly.

More specifically:
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/minor_e.asp
"Firearm Users Younger than 18
Those under 18 years of age are not permitted to bring firearms into Canada or to acquire firearms by any means, even as a gift, but they can use them under some circumstances"


Said minor aquired it with out a parent or adult present. Once again.

Most company policies that retailers post and use, are due to laws in this country and them requiring ways to protect themselves against said laws if someone who purchases an item from them breaks the law with them.
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Last edited by BloodSport; January 1st, 2009 at 17:35..
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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:35   #17
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Wal-Mart (or any large retailer) will make sure that they have their butts covered 100%. A lawsuit filed between 2 people might result in a settlement in the thousands, maybe, but between a person and a corporation with multi-billion dollar pockets, that same settlement will be in the millions.

Cheaper to put up a standard disclaimer and make sales policies than to face litigation, unfounded or not. And the law is unclear even for us, people who use these things, imagine for a retailer of tens of thousands of items, with varying legalities from one country/state/province to another.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:35   #18
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well i dont know why my post was removed but according to the police and the cfc,( i talk to both on a regular bases) my post was correct.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:46   #19
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also another question why are people talking about us law were in canada and so is this man and his son.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:47   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodSport View Post
More specifically:
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/minor_e.asp
"Firearm Users Younger than 18
Those under 18 years of age are not permitted to bring firearms into Canada or to acquire firearms by any means, even as a gift, but they can use them under some circumstances"
By law, imitation firearms are not firearms. This is a very important distinction. If an imitation fulfills the legal criteria for firearm, it ceases to be a mere imitation and becomes a firearm. Short of that, it remains merely an imitation and are legally distinct from firearm.

Their use as weapons in criminal acts result in the same punishments, but their separation as different legal categories is clearly illustrated by the fact that they occupy two different subjections of s. 85. When the CAFP fact sheets refer to firearms, it specifically refers to firearm as defined by the Criminal Code section 2 and 84(3). In that regard, minors cannot legally acquire firearm. Conversely, there is no law on the acquisition or possession of imitation firearm, because they are not firearm.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:52   #21
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By law, imitation firearms are not firearms. This is a very important distinction. If an imitation fulfills the legal criteria for firearm, it ceases to be a mere imitation and becomes a firearm. Short of that, it remains merely an imitation and are legally distinct from firearm.

Their use as weapons in criminal acts result in the same punishments, but their separation as different legal categories is clearly illustrated by the fact that they occupy two different subjections of s. 85. When the CAFP fact sheets refer to firearms, it specifically refers to firearm as defined by the Criminal Code section 2 and 84(3). In that regard, minors cannot legally acquire firearm. Conversely, there is no law on the acquisition or possession of imitation firearm, because they are not firearm.
Did you miss this part?

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/airguns_e.asp
"4. Air guns that are neither firearms nor replicas

These are air guns that are not powerful enough to be classified as firearms and that do not resemble a real firearm closely enough to be considered a replica. An example would be a harmless air gun made out of clear plastic or a device that is obviously a child’s toy.

Like replicas, they generally fall within the definition of an “imitation firearm” and are subject to some penalties under the Criminal Code if used to commit a crime."

Air guns do fall under the laws of legal age of purchase in this country. Hence the 18+ to purchase. Yes it is up to him if he wishes to supervise his child or not and allow him to keep it, but the fact is it should not have been sold with out an adult there for permission. And he has already said he did not give permission to his son or the store for him to buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reconn3 View Post
Thanks Crunchmeister, Just to make things clear, I didn't give my son consent to buy the gun.
My first impression was that the store should NOT have sold the gun to him. There's even a bright yellow 'WARNING' label on the back clearly stating the gun should not be sold to a minor (U.18) and that I.D. is required prior to the sale.

I'm definitely going to have words with them...

Thanks again.
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Last edited by BloodSport; January 1st, 2009 at 17:56..
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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:54   #22
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Originally Posted by acidpunk View Post
well i dont know why my post was removed but according to the police and the cfc,( i talk to both on a regular bases) my post was correct.
Because it wasn't correct and even if it was, wasn't relevant. There is no "legal age" for airsoft guns in Canada. Airsoft guns as replica firearms have no legal age. The item in question is not a replica firearm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acidpunk View Post
also another question why are people talking about us law were in canada and so is this man and his son.
BloodSport was trying to make a point.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 17:58   #23
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also another question why are people talking about us law were in canada and so is this man and his son.
US site was referenced, was refering to the statements on said site.

And considering the US law is much much more relaxed then the Canadian Laws regarding Airsoft it in all sense still applies. They have walk in stores and Airsoft only fields and TV shows, every walk in store in Canada has been shut down or because of shut downs caused all other walk in retail stores to follow suit.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 18:27   #24
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I think you're confused, because your premise doesn't lead to your conclusion at all. You're missing something in between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodSport View Post
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/airguns_e.asp
"4. Air guns that are neither firearms nor replicas

These are air guns that are not powerful enough to be classified as firearms and that do not resemble a real firearm closely enough to be considered a replica. An example would be a harmless air gun made out of clear plastic or a device that is obviously a child’s toy.

Like replicas, they generally fall within the definition of an “imitation firearm” and are subject to some penalties under the Criminal Code if used to commit a crime."
The above establishes that the Cybergun Defender in question is an imitation firearm. There's no disagreement there, since that's what I've been saying all along.

Quote:
Air guns do fall under the laws of legal age of purchase in this country.
That is an unsubstantiated conclusion.

In order for "air guns" to fall under the "laws of legal age of purchase" in this country, 2 things must happen.

1. Airgun in question must fall under a Canadian legal definition, being an "airgun" has no legal significance unless it corresponds to a legal definition
2. Above definition must fall under an existing legal age of purchase, being a legal definition has no legal significance unless legal control measures is explicitly stated within the definition itself or through the use of the definition in specific sections of statute, regulations or bylaw

The airgun in question is one Cybergun Defender. Through its inaccurate dimensions, transparency and low power, it is clearly established to be an imitation firearm. Number 1 is fulfilled.

Since the legal category of concern is imitation firearm, we have to look at whether any legal age restriction exist for that category only. Imitation firearm is not firearm, so any legal age restriction for firearm does not apply to imitation firearm unless otherwise indicated. Imitation firearm as it is defined in s. 84(1) of the Criminal Code includes no mentions of any control measures, including age, so any age restriction would fall upon the specific offences within the Code and specific permission-provisions of the Firearms Act.

An examination of the Criminal Code and Firearms Act would reveal that no such offences in the Code nor permission-provisions exist for imitation firearm, both on the part of the seller and buyer. Imitation firearm only appears (relevant to our study) in s. 85(2) of the Criminal Code, under Using imitation firearm in commission of offence. Since that section only applies to the use of imitation firearm as a weapon in crime, it has no bearing on legal age of purchase.

Furthermore, imitation firearm does not appear under any of the Possession Offences (s.88-98) of the Criminal Code, which is what the Firearms Act derive its legal "teeth" from when it comes to punishing non-compliance. Especially since imitation firearm is not subject to the age restriction placed on firearm, thus requiring imitation firearm to be explicitly named in relevant sections of law.

Also, any age restriction would exist in the Firearms Act, not the Criminal Code. Punishment for non-compliance of the age restrict in the Firearms Act exist in the Criminal Code. Since there is zero mention of imitation firearm in the Firearms Act, and imitation firearm doesn't share the firearm's age restriction, there is no federal age restriction on imitation firearm. Period.

An examination of provincial bylaws would reveal that such bylaw does exist, but only in Ontario. Since the device in question was purchased in BC, it is not relevant.

In conclusion, number 2 is not fulfilled as far as the item in question is concerned.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 21:52   #25
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i have a example here for you walmart canada has the grizzly bb/pellet rifle that shoots around 350 fps which is rated 13+ . because of the rating dose that mean a 13 year old can walk in walmart and buy it. no he/she cant a person of the age of 18+ has to buy it by law.

but im done with this fucking subject

reconn dont listen to these people make it easy call the police, and the canada firearms center and get your answers direct. they will be a hell of a lot better than what you can find on here. i hope that you can get a real answer soon.

there is good info spread around the site, but unfortunately this site is a wast of time because nobody here will agree on anything and there is also alot of misleading information
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Knowledge is power. And yet the biggest threat to our military is a bunch of cave dwellers who think 72 virgins blow you when you die. Weird
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Old January 1st, 2009, 22:22   #26
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The only misinformation here is from people who quote WalMart policy as examples of Canadian law.

Reconn3, if you choose to talk to the Canadian Firearms Program, be sure to have an internet link to the device in question handy. It helps them answer your questions quickly and accurately.

In any case, I'm locking this thread. If the only available counterpoint to my reference to Canadian law are WalMart policies, further discussion are likely to be confusing, futile and uninformative.

Reconn3, PM me if you would like to have this thread reopened at a later date.
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