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Old December 31st, 2008, 10:35   #16
kalnaren
 
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.12's, especially poorly made ones, will tear the living shit out of the hopup and barrel.

Stop being a cheap ass and get some .20's.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 21:32   #17
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I would go with .2s for sure. Go ahead and get the crosman 5,000 for $10, they aren't the best but they won't cause any damage. And dirt cheap. They won't give you as much accuracy as say TSD .23's or TSD .2 for that matter, but they will be FAR above .12's.
So in short, Crosman .2's are as cheap as I would go without causing damage and/or or horrid accuracy. Used them in my CA m15a4 which is still going strong 20,000 + rounds later.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 19:04   #18
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The choice to use .12s is controversal as you can see (a lot of snobsofters cant even imagine touching them). In reality quite a few locals have used .12s for CQB and they work fine- slightly faster for those close and tight areas is an advantage but they do not have the range or accuracy that .2s have so they dont see much use outside of CQB.

Many .12s are made terribly (seams and nipples and such that can scratch a barrel or rip a hop-up) so you need to be careful with what brand you select. Most of the .12s used here are the Crosman orange/yellow ones and no one has had any problems with scratches or rips from those.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 22:18   #19
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Originally Posted by MillerBRo View Post
The choice to use .12s is controversal as you can see (a lot of snobsofters cant even imagine touching them). In reality quite a few locals have used .12s for CQB and they work fine- slightly faster for those close and tight areas is an advantage but they do not have the range or accuracy that .2s have so they dont see much use outside of CQB.

Many .12s are made terribly (seams and nipples and such that can scratch a barrel or rip a hop-up) so you need to be careful with what brand you select. Most of the .12s used here are the Crosman orange/yellow ones and no one has had any problems with scratches or rips from those.
Snobsofters? How is not wanting to tear the living hell out of your gun being a snob?

As you say, many (Ie, almost all) .12's are made like crap. Getting high quality ones are generally more expensive than buying good .20's...
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Old January 1st, 2009, 22:40   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
.12's, especially poorly made ones, will tear the living shit out of the hopup and barrel.
x 2

.12's are the original soft-air ammunition and are not really designed to be used in higher end AEGs, including Kracken and some of the newer clear receiver type AEGs.

The problem with seamed .12's (or any seamed BB) is that they are generally made in two halves and heat sealed together - this makes the common point of failure the seam itself and if the BB fails, it generally comes apart into two pieces, guaranteed to mess up anything in your feedpath...

"snobsofters"... hehe, I gotta put that one in my lexicon...
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 00:30   #21
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Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
Snobsofters? How is not wanting to tear the living hell out of your gun being a snob?

As you say, many (Ie, almost all) .12's are made like crap. Getting high quality ones are generally more expensive than buying good .20's...
lol duh we're all a bunch elitist snobs that frown upon things like .12 bb's
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 00:38   #22
cbcsteve
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
x 2

.12's are the original soft-air ammunition and are not really designed to be used in higher end AEGs, including Kracken and some of the newer clear receiver type AEGs.

The problem with seamed .12's (or any seamed BB) is that they are generally made in two halves and heat sealed together - this makes the common point of failure the seam itself and if the BB fails, it generally comes apart into two pieces, guaranteed to mess up anything in your feedpath...

"snobsofters"... hehe, I gotta put that one in my lexicon...
This SHOULD be copied and pasted, hell I'll copy and paste it myself

This pretty much answers the common question of the .12 BBs use
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 19:54   #23
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
x 2


"snobsofters"... hehe, I gotta put that one in my lexicon...
yeah its a subclass of chairsofter

snobsofter: One who makes grand generalized opinions based on little or no fact; (but with a jerky attitude and less knowledge )


No Kalnaren, the 'snob' part would be stating he was being cheap for looking at .12s- you dont know him or his reasoning so why the attack? you have to get your digs in at the newbs eh? just because you cant figure out a skillful way to use them doesnt mean they are useless or that someone considering them is a 'cheap ass' - but keep it up, you and a few others sure make airsoft canada a wonderful place for newbs

edit- course I dont know you really either and sniping at you for sniping at him doesnt make this place any friendlier so I guess I'm being a dick myself- for that you have my apologies, however I stand by my initial statement that many people dont touch .12s because of the 'status' of using them as opposed to their actual performance, which is fine in CQB areas. I dont mind personal preference but airsoft has waaaay to many people who just follow what they hear rather than what they know to be fact. Fact is that several people here in lower BC have used the .12s at our field in Krakens, KWA M4s, and JG guns and they work fine for CQB- just dont go using poorly made ones.

Last edited by MillerBRo; January 2nd, 2009 at 20:07.. Reason: cause I'm a bit of a grouchy dick today
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 20:43   #24
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yeah its a subclass of chairsofter

snobsofter: One who makes grand generalized opinions based on little or no fact; (but with a jerky attitude and less knowledge )
That makes sense, but lucky for me I do actually play and make generalizations based on experience or the word of players who have been in the game far longer than I have.

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No Kalnaren, the 'snob' part would be stating he was being cheap for looking at .12s- you dont know him or his reasoning so why the attack? you have to get your digs in at the newbs eh? just because you cant figure out a skillful way to use them doesnt mean they are useless or that someone considering them is a 'cheap ass' - but keep it up, you and a few others sure make airsoft canada a wonderful place for newbs
Of course, at this point I'm being general, but honestly other than cost what motivation would there be for using .12's instead of .20's? Really? In CQB the velocity difference won't matter that much. At 30 feet if I'm going to hit you with a .12 I'm going to hit you with a .20, especially considering both will cover that distance before your brain even registered the other guy was shooting at you.

Also, take into account the fact that .12's that won't kill your gun are very hard to find. Most of the ones readily availble will be of very poor quality, so the inferance again is that the only reason to try and find .12's is the cost. High grade .20's are readily available... so why not use them?
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edit- course I dont know you really either and sniping at you for sniping at him doesnt make this place any friendlier so I guess I'm being a dick myself- for that you have my apologies, however I stand by my initial statement that many people dont touch .12s because of the 'status' of using them as opposed to their actual performance, which is fine in CQB areas.
No apology necessary, it was a difference of opinion -my opinion on why he was using .12's is because they're cheap.

And again, you say their performance is fine -it is if you can find good quality ones. I personally will not take that risk.
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I dont mind personal preference but airsoft has waaaay to many people who just follow what they hear rather than what they know to be fact. Fact is that several people here in lower BC have used the .12s at our field in Krakens, KWA M4s, and JG guns and they work fine for CQB- just dont go using poorly made ones.
Well, I wouldn't trust .12's in my CA or TM, and I'm sure a lot of people won't use them in their G&P, VFC, or STAR guns either. Why do they use .12's? Cost? Or do they seriously get a noticable performance boost at distances < 50 feet?
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 21:33   #25
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Makes sense explained like that and from your own experience I can see why your assessment is as such.

In CQB we have noticed that for several guns the difference between the .12s and the .2s is as much as 80fps. 80fps may not seem like a lot but at the extreme ranges of CQB many have noticed that it is the difference between if a target gets his head back into cover before your BBs arrive or not.

An AEG example would be the TM G3 SAS or its clones, these have been used locally in CQB and as I have one of the sub-par clones I have been looking at performances of each brand and variant. The difference between a .2 and a .12 is often 50-70fps and at ranges of 30-40 feet that extra snap is much harder to 'Matrix' or dodge. Since the TM and its clones all fire in the 200-300fps region we found the difference between a low 200 and a high 200 seems to be key. With most people firing at least a 3 round burst the less accurate .12s hold their own in that area of the field (in the long range areas the .12s are completely useless).

A pistol example would be many of the Co2 pistols- here in BC the season is much warmer and there are plenty of Co2 pistols in use. With a nice .2 BB you can get a good 300fps which is plenty fast but with a .12 many of them get closer to 380-390 fps (I should add that our field has rules on fps which are lower than that for pistols with .2g BBs but that the owners also consider J energy so that the fast .12s are still 'safe' at CQB distances).

The tradeoff is that the .12s have less mass and so though they have plenty of snap the wind carries them... so often the shot is fast and useless. The .2s are of course preferred for all the reasons stated- more accurate, better quality and availability. Yet still some folks prefer that extra speed (they just fire 3 shots where perhaps only one would be needed with a more accurate weight).

I guess my contention is that though many or most people wont find that (good) .12s are of any use to them there is a CQB style of play that makes very good use of them (one of the guys uses a KWA M4, and his TF 11 with .12s and he has made very good use of the lighter BBs). In this case the fellow is looking to do some indoor shooting and at those ranges a .12 might very well be suitable (I vary my ammo between .2, .23 and .25 mostly but do have a springer UHC revolver that does much better with .12s) As such I would hate to dismiss any aspect of the sport- even those hated .12g BB lovers I guess my thinking is that so long as it keeps players playing and they are happy I dont care what they use so long as they know all the pros and cons.

Last edited by MillerBRo; January 2nd, 2009 at 21:37..
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