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Old December 31st, 2008, 01:12   #31
Crunchmeister
 
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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
I have yet to see an ICS with a clear receiver, but I've seen hundreds (no joke either) of their standard fare.
Right here...
http://www.canadianairgunsupply.com/...4-carbine.html

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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
And there is no way anyone is going to convince me that a polycarbonate receiver is as strong as ABS or magnesium or even zinc alloy potmetal.
Yet people will swear up and down that there's no need to replace a plastic body on a TM with metal. There are a lot of stock-bodied TM guns that have withstood years of field abuse without any problems with their lower receivers breaking. I don't see why a polycarb receiver would be any different if it isn't abused. Accidents do happen, but those accidents can just as easily break a metal gun. Even the receiver on a $2000 PTW breaks. If it breaks eventually, then it's time to get a new receiver. No big deal, really.

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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
Some of their internals "may" be the same by design, but I promise you that they haven't found every way possible to keep the costs down, and as time goes on, the quality of all the parts will tell the tale.

This is still new territory for everyone, and the summer gaming season isn't even upon us. Give it some time.
When Ken first introduced us to the G&G "cansoft" line at 007, he specified in his thread that these were the SAME guns G&G sold with all metal receivers, only with a clear lower instead. He said they all other parts are identical to their non-clear lines. So you're saying that either G&G lied to Ken, or that Ken lied to us.

As for G&G keeping "costs down", I think that makes no sense at all. They don't need to cut costs to make them at that price. These cansoft G&G are selling comparatively for more than the US price of their all metal counterparts, although not a whole lot more. Once G&Gs initial manufacturing costs are covered, it costs them way less to manufacture a clear plastic receiver than a metal one. Even if G&G sell their cansoft models to Canadian distributors for more than what they sell their metal guns to distributors in other countries, that's still a huge savings for the Canadian consumer and a bigger per-unit profit for G&G. So why lower the quality of the internals to save money?
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Old December 31st, 2008, 01:25   #32
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Man, you need to learn alot:

1) Those ICS guns are not available yet. To my knowledge (and as told to me by dealers who have bought from these guys), they aren't out yet.

2) The plastic ABS composite on a Marui is not polycarbonate. ABS does not come in clear. Totally different plastic. ABS flexes. Poly shatters. I know, I work with ABS, Poly and PVC everyday. They all react different with changes in temperature.

3) The G&G guns I've seen from CAS are the same $193 dollar guns from Redwolf with cheaper parts on them and without the nicer trimmings. Plastic hop-ups aren't in $400 U.S. G&G M4s. G&G guns traditionally have always shot 350ish FPS, have been quite accurate (newer ones are advertised with 6.04mm barrels).

Costs to manufacture a polycarbonate receiver are about the same as a zinc alloy or ABS. It's all injection moulded. Painting or powder coating takes but seconds by robot.

What makes no sense to me is that a $193 dollar U.S. gun that sells for $350 at 007 and $308 at CAS (but in a cheaper form) would be compared to the $400 U.S. at Redwolf.

Is 007's $400 G&G exactly the same as a $400 U.S. G&G but with a different receiver? Do you honestly believe that? Why not get Ken to elaborate about that here once and for all? I'm sure there are going to be other differences.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 17:57   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
Man, you need to learn alot:

1) Those ICS guns are not available yet. To my knowledge (and as told to me by dealers who have bought from these guys), they aren't out yet.

2) The plastic ABS composite on a Marui is not polycarbonate. ABS does not come in clear. Totally different plastic. ABS flexes. Poly shatters. I know, I work with ABS, Poly and PVC everyday. They all react different with changes in temperature.

3) The G&G guns I've seen from CAS are the same $193 dollar guns from Redwolf with cheaper parts on them and without the nicer trimmings. Plastic hop-ups aren't in $400 U.S. G&G M4s. G&G guns traditionally have always shot 350ish FPS, have been quite accurate (newer ones are advertised with 6.04mm barrels).

Costs to manufacture a polycarbonate receiver are about the same as a zinc alloy or ABS. It's all injection moulded. Painting or powder coating takes but seconds by robot.

What makes no sense to me is that a $193 dollar U.S. gun that sells for $350 at 007 and $308 at CAS (but in a cheaper form) would be compared to the $400 U.S. at Redwolf.

Is 007's $400 G&G exactly the same as a $400 U.S. G&G but with a different receiver? Do you honestly believe that? Why not get Ken to elaborate about that here once and for all? I'm sure there are going to be other differences.
I have been to HK a number of times and have gone to the airsoft stores there, including Redwolf's warehouse. Redwolf doesn't even bother with the Asian market or local retail because Redwolf's prices are 20-40% over RETAIL. I can see how a $193 gun could in fact be the same as the Redwolf gun that they retail for $400.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 19:05   #34
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I have been to HK a number of times and have gone to the airsoft stores there, including Redwolf's warehouse. Redwolf doesn't even bother with the Asian market or local retail because Redwolf's prices are 20-40% over RETAIL. I can see how a $193 gun could in fact be the same as the Redwolf gun that they retail for $400.
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=16262

Redwolf $432 U.S.

http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper...GR16R4C_cat_GG AEGs

WGC $388 U.S.

http://www.uncompany.com/pageproduct...sp?prodid=4652

Uncompany $432 U.S.


So, how these the same as a $193 (or less in the case of CAS) G&G? I used this as a comparison of model price differences as all 3 retailers had this one listed.

Wow, just, wow!!
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Old December 31st, 2008, 19:27   #35
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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
3) The G&G guns I've seen from CAS are the same $193 dollar guns from Redwolf with cheaper parts on them and without the nicer trimmings. Plastic hop-ups aren't in $400 U.S. G&G M4s. G&G guns traditionally have always shot 350ish FPS, have been quite accurate (newer ones are advertised with 6.04mm barrels).
http://www.thewarstore.org/GG.html

According to The Warstore, plastic hopups are typical of all G&G M4/16s. I had one in my G&G M16A3, not that it was ever anything but reliable (once the sleeve was replaced). It is my understanding that all "high end" full metal G&G ARs are simply dressed up versions of their full metal vanilla ARs, and their higher price reflect external differences, not internal differences.

I've only seen one clear receiver G&G thus far, so I don't really have a lot of experience with them. However, from what I can tell, it had bearing bushings just like my full metal G&G. Kinda ironic how being transparent was helpful, at least on that occasion. Anyways, if G&G wanted to cut costs, I would've expected those to be the first thing to go.

Quote:
Is 007's $400 G&G exactly the same as a $400 U.S. G&G but with a different receiver? Do you honestly believe that? Why not get Ken to elaborate about that here once and for all? I'm sure there are going to be other differences.
I don't think it's out of the question. A detail internal comparison would resolve the issue, if Ken or CAS is not inclined to field such a question. However, until said examination or answer are provided, I don't think it's unreasonable to hold either position.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 19:45   #36
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All the G&G's I've seen from pre-2005 generation up to post 2006 (with the new gearbox) had metal hop-ups. I fixed 5 of them when DEA sent up 5 replacement gearbox shells in 2005.

And no, I don't believe for 1 second that a $193 (with extras I might add) G&G is the same as the exact same model that sells for $352 at Redwolf (without the extras), just with a clear lower.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 19:52   #37
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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
All the G&G's I've seen from pre-2005 generation up to post 2006 (with the new gearbox) had metal hop-ups. I fixed 5 of them when DEA sent up 5 replacement gearbox shells in 2005.
I think they went back to plastic for most of their lineups since then. When I was researching into buying a G&G earlier this year, I had a hard time finding recent mentions of their metal hopup. I'm pretty sure mine was made within the last 18 months.

Quote:
And no, I don't believe for 1 second that a $193 (with extras I might add) G&G is the same as the exact same model that sells for $352 at Redwolf (without the extras), just with a clear lower.
As I've said, you're perfectly entitled to that opinion. Unless you can prove the difference, however, it does not mean prove the opposite opinion to be wrong.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 19:58   #38
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As I've said, you're perfectly entitled to that opinion. Unless you can prove the difference, however, it does not mean prove the opposite opinion to be wrong.
Nice try!!! :smack:
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Old January 1st, 2009, 12:13   #39
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[QUOTE=mcguyver;888897]Man, you need to learn alot:

1) Those ICS guns are not available yet. To my knowledge (and as told to me by dealers who have bought from these guys), they aren't out yet.

QUOTE]

Right here don't know if they have them in stock but they are still selling them
http://www.shootsoft.ca/clearsoft/index.php?cPath=47_46
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Old January 1st, 2009, 13:59   #40
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So, where are they?

Having it listed on a website does not make it exist or available. When it hits the streets, as it were, then we'll know for certain what it's about.
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 09:01   #41
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I know I was just saying Iíve seen them for sale. But to be honest I personally think the G&G half plastic half metal bodies wont be to par with there full metal counterparts at all. I seem to remember reading there full metal m16 variants have magnesium receivers where the clear bottom ones had some form of cast aluminium and I personally have to say the magnesium would be tenfold better and thatís from personal experience due to the fact that I own more than a few paintball guns almost all aluminium an the one that is magnesium is of much better quality in both strength and weight. (Once again sorry for making a reference to paintball for all those who hate the sport with a passion).

to make it clear i was intentionaly talking about the G&G's not ICS's

Last edited by The Saint; January 2nd, 2009 at 11:24..
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 22:38   #42
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For those who are in Montreal Area, you will have the chance to try it at the next game at Commando arena!



This baby is just amazing... It does an accurate 350fps with ,20g

And I will surprise few of you by telling, I will chose this babe to play and not my TM sr16!! Try it an you will see why!!

With is smoke clear and the black gearbox, there is no need to paint it!

Christian
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 00:19   #43
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if you want a full metal gun do what many piantballers do to get a cool gun for milsim paint ball how ever instead of turning an airsoft gun into a paintball gun turn a real gun into an airsoft gun it's actually less illegal then making an airsoft gun that looks real

i do applaud ICS and G&G for doing what they can to help Canadian airsoft players express they're right to happiness under the brutal rule of the Canadian government
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 00:21   #44
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if you want a full metal gun do what many piantballers do to get a cool gun for milsim paint ball how ever instead of turning an airsoft gun into a paintball gun turn a real gun into an airsoft gun it's actually less illegal then making an airsoft gun that looks real
Err.... No, it's not. They're about equally illegal.

Please don't dispense faulty legal advice.
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 01:03   #45
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When you will buy those G&G you will see there no need to modify those babe to look more natural, and they will be legal!!
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