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My Freedom Could Be In Your Hands - Up and Coming Court Case (re: specarms)

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Old March 6th, 2009, 16:11   #151
Daiviet
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It just sucks that he was just supporting something he loved and now he's going to be sentenced to confinement for 2 years.

Its not only the sentencing though, its gonna be tough for him to land a job afterwards now that he has a criminal record.

Best of luck Wil, even though you won't be able to read this until 2 years from now.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 16:12   #152
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It's a lot easier to prosecute the law abiding and solid citizens vs. the full on gangsters, those guys are dangerous!

Just imagine if a gang got their hands on a bunch of replicas,,,, oh right they'd be out gunned by the folks with real pistols, rifles, SMGs, and ball ammo who are busy shooting up Vancouver and the lower mainland every couple days this year.

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Ya, by the way that's all laid out, it's like Big Brother basically said 'if you even think about airsoft, smackdown for you'.

We all know it could have been much worse but this is still just ridiculous. They are treating him as if he were a potentially violent, off the hook psychopath. All he did was sell toys to a community using them in a activites that are actually safer then paintball for the most part.

To think of all the petty thugs around here who have done much worse only to get a couple moths or a slap on the wrist....angers me. And it's not like they are going to be dealing with a fuck-load of these cases. Retailers aren't exactly common.

Yes, legal techies here, I already said I know if could be much worse. In the grand scheme of all things crime though, this is still just another display of our lousy "justice" (why do they even call it that) system. Lame.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 16:41   #153
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The punishement is harsh. Even if it's "just" a period of conditionnal liberty and probation.

If I was him, being forbidden of playing airsoft and even using the internet... My life would be screwed. My whole life revolve around the internet.

And I think of playing airsoft or doing gun related stuff at least 10 times a day... How could I be able to resist playing or reading about it... it's beyond me.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 17:04   #154
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As shitty as it may seem he was rather lucky considering he WAS guilty. Other than an absolute dicharge a conditional discharge was the best he could hope for. As for the conditions they are rather expected that he can not participate in or possess anything(Airsoft) related to what the charges stem from. The worst part IMO is the financial penalty which was quite heavy. On top of the thousands he already paod for legal representatipn. Now a conditional discharge will not stay on his record for life provided he abides by his conditions it will automatically be sealed 3 years after he's done serving the conditions of his sentence.

All that being said it still sucks and shows what a backwards justice system we have, where it is far easier to convict a good person rather than someone who cuts peoples heads of in a bus full of witnesses.

Good luck Will and this community is still behind you. Hope to talk to you in about 2 years.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 17:05   #155
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after reading the entire article...

Although is may seem 'harsh', the man did do a number of 'shady' (for lack of a better word) business practices.

Like Aquamarine said, he never once sold a movie prop while operating as a movie prop store. He also was confronted by RCMP about his business that replicas were illegal to sell. After that confrontation he started requesting that redwolf (his distributor) up the velocity of his orders to above 407fps (below that defines a replica firearm). Although that would evade replicas definition, it would in turn violate another import law.

The article seems quite fair, and unbiased (save for the fact that they used the "we will show real guns aswell as airsoft guns to the court room to show there 'scary' realism" arguement.) I dont like how the article made many references to bb guns, pellet guns, and Canadian Tire, but never once, unless i missed something, about an incident with marui, g&g, ics, etc.

He got off lightly, relative to the possibilities he was facing.

Its unfortionate that a trusted airsoft dealer got into this mess, and i wish him the best during his sentence.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 18:08   #156
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After reading the sentencing that is pretty shitty for him. Maybe one day our justice system will be based on logic and common scene instead of what makes soccer moms feel good but has no real effect. Look at how pervasive gangs and shootings have become in Vancouver and how much time was spent punishing this guy for selling toys that every one of us probably grew up playing with as a child. Not actual airsoft guns mind you but pellet and cap guns that look just as real and would be just as illegal. I remember going to Toys R Us when I was a kid and going down the "gun" isle which was nothing but what would today be called replica firearms and metal handcuffs. The only person who is going to be seriously hurt by these things are those intentionally using them in a crime or those who are criminally negligent. Sorry to rant there but these "crimes" that don't specifically hurt anyone and carry over the top sentences just piss me off so much.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 18:39   #157
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Of note

In several spots the judge indicated that as far as he could tell this was "the first" such case.
where someone was prosecuted for the illegal import and sale of airsoft guns.

This judgment should serve to reduce the "grey area" perception of the legal status of AS guns.

Also of note.. was it was very clear that this particular judge was well aware of what "airsoft" was .. and what they are typically used for.

It seemed to me that if he could have shown where all the guns and ended up and proven that they were all used to participate in Games it may have mitigated the sentence.

Anyway.. VERY interesting
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Old March 7th, 2009, 00:46   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
In several spots the judge indicated that as far as he could tell this was "the first" such case.
where someone was prosecuted for the illegal import and sale of airsoft guns.

This judgment should serve to reduce the "grey area" perception of the legal status of AS guns.

Also of note.. was it was very clear that this particular judge was well aware of what "airsoft" was .. and what they are typically used for.

It seemed to me that if he could have shown where all the guns and ended up and proven that they were all used to participate in Games it may have mitigated the sentence.

Anyway.. VERY interesting
good point. i can see (if i squint) where the crown is comeing from and their side of the argument, and technically they are right. had will been able to provide evidence of due diligence on where these had gone (if he had kept records of who he sold them to, proof they were over 18 and were verifyed) i believe it very much may have helped him out. unfortunatly noone had the for sight to predict the need for that and sadly someone had to pay the price for the rest of the retailer to learn that lesson. will did make a last ditch attempt to come up with some of that information, but unfortunatly to no avail.

anyways, its sad to see someone who helped this fledgeling sport burn for their contribution, i never personally bought from him, but i can still sympathise, i wish him the best of luck and hopefully/ doubtfully this may still get resolved in his favor (granted its pretty much over with now) sometime down the road.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 01:01   #159
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Comes down to don't sell Airsoft guns in Canada or you will be treated as a criminal, etc etc.

Sorry but this country has a joke of a legal system. My prayers go to Mr Wong to have to suffer for this shit.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 07:02   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
This judgment should serve to reduce the "grey area" perception of the legal status of AS guns.
From this judgement, it looks like the 407 fps limit is clearly what distinguishes an airsoft 'firearm' from an airsoft 'replica'. I guess you would need a firearms import permit and then importing airsofts at between 407 and 500 would be LEGAL and selling them to the the public would be LEGAL just like selling a bb or pellet gun. At least the one good thing to come out of this ruling is that our sport CAN be legal...I just wonder if the gun has to be manufactured for that fps window ie. Systema PTW's or it could be modded before export. . .
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Old March 9th, 2009, 19:48   #161
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This will make a lot of retailler in Canada think...

Now, curious to see how the case would have turned if only can soft were sold.

Good luck Mr. Wong.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 20:08   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.erHead View Post
At least the one good thing to come out of this ruling is that our sport CAN be legal...I just wonder if the gun has to be manufactured for that fps window ie .
THE "SPORT" IS LEGAL always has been .. this is not the issue..

All possesed guns are legal... this judgement has NOTHING to do with the "sport" of airsoft.

It has everything to do with the treatment of importers and retailers.

There is NOTHING in the way of the "sport" you can buy all the imitation guns you want .. legally retailed .. Granted they will have clear receivers.. but a clear receiver certainly won't stop you from playing.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 21:06   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatt13 View Post
good point. i can see (if i squint) where the crown is comeing from and their side of the argument, and technically they are right. had will been able to provide evidence of due diligence on where these had gone (if he had kept records of who he sold them to, proof they were over 18 and were verifyed) i believe it very much may have helped him out. unfortunatly noone had the for sight to predict the need for that and sadly someone had to pay the price for the rest of the retailer to learn that lesson. will did make a last ditch attempt to come up with some of that information, but unfortunatly to no avail.
The law is all about technically. it has to be or you get judgements on warm fuzzies and that just doesn't work... I do remember an incident of another retailer selling at flea markets in Vancouver, how that promotes the airsoft community is beyond me. And a business like that should be able to account for all it's sales, otherwise it looks really shady.
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Old March 10th, 2009, 00:39   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
THE "SPORT" IS LEGAL always has been .. this is not the issue..

All possesed guns are legal... this judgement has NOTHING to do with the "sport" of airsoft.

It has everything to do with the treatment of importers and retailers.

There is NOTHING in the way of the "sport" you can buy all the imitation guns you want .. legally retailed .. Granted they will have clear receivers.. but a clear receiver certainly won't stop you from playing.
Sorry I wasn't being clear...I was talking about the importation and retailing of airsoft that are NOT CLEAR but are simply in the fps 'window'.
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Old March 10th, 2009, 00:56   #165
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Quote:
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Sorry I wasn't being clear...I was talking about the importation and retailing of airsoft that are NOT CLEAR but are simply in the fps 'window'.
Well, this is the issue. Peter Kang did go through the effort of having guns made that fall within the window (G&P) and he had them shipped in plain boxes (no fps or other writing other than make and model) and as well no manual. Only bonded paper from G&P stating the guns had a velocity of 450fps or something like that (I don't remember precisely and I don't have one anymore). He got those in fine, but got greedy, and started doing it with Marui. Pretty hard to argue a gun shoots 450 fps when the box says 90 m/s.

Importing non-clear guns is legal, if you have the right paperwork. Transferring them is not legal, and possession is sketchy as well (onus is on the owner to prove when he got it).

But these are not really offences you are going to get arrested over, unless you are pinched selling dozens and hundreds of them, like Spec-Arms or other retailers who "retired", either voluntarily or not.
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