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Old July 15th, 2008, 10:44   #1
Blackthorne
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ON CHEATING

In my opinion, the only way to sort out cheating is if we ALL REF. The organizers can't take on the administrative load of finding, training and fielding proper refs. We can barely get games going on time as it is (not knocking organizers here, it's just a fact)

With that in mind, here are my SOP"s for "Un-aknowledged Engagements".



1 - Sight, Acquire, Fire, Assess, Scan
2 - If no reaction, Sight, Acquire, Fire, Assess, Scan
3 - If no reaction, Tac Reload, Dump a full mag on full auto or quick select fire. Assess and scan.
4 - If no reaction, get on comms and let admin know you are going to approach a player and find out what might be going on. (OPTIONAL)
5 - Remove your mag, throw on your red kill rag, and go talk it over with the other player(s).

At this point you are not playing anymore. You are going to sort out the problem before it spreads and causes issues for others. This is a calm, level headed approach until it doesn't need to be calm and level headed anymore. If it's a matter of education or an honest mistake, fine. If it's an asshat the gloves come off and they are treated as such and processed in quick fucking order.


Please comment.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 10:54   #2
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I noticed that some people don't call HIT loudly when hit.
they just lay there and take out their red flag.
once or twice I didn't see it and showered the guy thinking he was cheating.
red glowsticks usually solve the pb...
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Old July 15th, 2008, 10:57   #3
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I had always thought it was implied that everyone was suppose to be refing, since airsoft is dependent on self monitoring and buddy monitoring.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 10:59   #4
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Not hearing the HIT call might not be a problem in most case when you see the player react, raise his hand and search for his flag.

The problem is with players not calling their hit, remaining in a firing position or just freezing there...

I have no problem with people just dropping dead on the spot and getting their flag out. When I think I'v hit someone, I just keep aiming at him and looking at his reaction. If he still present a treat to me or my teamates, I shoot again.

But I agree, going to see the "suspected cheater" face to face on the spot will solve a lot of issues.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 11:20   #5
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Ok, now that we have two threads on cheating and a third where it's been mentioned numerous times, I have to ask:

Do you all you guys play with cheating douchebags?

Granted, I haven't been playing THAT long, but honestly I haven't really noticed enough cheating for it to really be a huge problem. Yea, some assholes won't call hits. So empty a mag in them and/or report them to the host. I've found that every person I've encounted who blatently ignores hits starts calling them real fast when 3+ people open up on him. And even so, I can count on a single hand the number of times I've encountered this at a game.

Sometimes I think people take airsoft a little too seriously. It's a game. You're always going to have people who cheat. It is completely, 100% possible to have fun at a game when there are some players who cheat. Those that don't have nobody to blame but themselves.

I'm not saying just accept that people cheat -but come on. If asshats don't call hits, just live with it at the moment, and report it when you get the chance. Don't let it distract you from the game.

Blackthorne, while I get what you're saying, adding SOPs and rules and procedures will not in any way solve any cheating problems. Having the host lay down the law and enforce it before the game starts will. I understand what you mean about it being a lot for a host to deal with, but honestly, I have not yet encountered a problem of such rampant cheating that it's become such an issue that its totally distracted from the game.

Anyways, this is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree all you want.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 11:29   #6
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Again, if they don't call their hits, raise gun/hand or kill rag, They will eat all the bb's in my two hi caps and 15 midcaps. If they still don't call it after that, then its okay, at lease I'm satisfied I gave him a lot of pimples.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 11:38   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
Anyways, this is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree all you want.
And I will ...

I spend allot of time and money going to games. I spend good money on gear. I spend time training with my mates. Between my military commitment (you know what that's like), my job, training in the US etc I usually get less than 5 days a year where I can get to a game/spend time with my wife/family.

When I go to a game, I EXPECT A FUCKING GAME. No some bullshit melodrama and constant handholding/spoonfeeding of mouth breathing miscreants.

When some cheating ASSHAT ruins my game because he is too excited to give a fuck, it's just plain rude, and it pisses me off enough to post up a thread like this. he has wasted my time, my money and my ability to play the game. Yes, it's just a game. But I put allot into it, and expect allot back. That's why I've started to attend private games, and themed Milsim events more. This shit doesn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
adding SOPs and rules and procedures will not in any way solve any cheating problems. Having the host lay down the law and enforce it before the game starts will.

How are the two different?

More to the point, I see hosts "lay down the law" at EVERY game. "Don't cheat" is a rule. "This is what you do if you encounter cheating" empowers people to solve their own problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
I'm not saying just accept that people cheat -but come on. If asshats don't call hits, just live with it at the moment, and report it when you get the chance. Don't let it distract you from the game.
No. I won't. Or they keep doing and end up ruining it for everyone. I give a shit, and am not that selfish. I want EVERYONE to have a good game and ignoring the issue lets it grow.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 11:52   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackthorne View Post
And I will ...

I spend allot of time and money going to games. I spend good money on gear. I spend time training with my mates. Between my military commitment (you know what that's like), my job, training in the US etc I usually get less than 5 days a year where I can get to a game/spend time with my wife/family.

When I go to a game, I EXPECT A FUCKING GAME. No some bullshit melodrama and constant handholding/spoonfeeding of mouth breathing miscreants.

When some cheating ASSHAT ruins my game because he is too excited to give a fuck, it's just plain rude, and it pisses me off enough to post up a thread like this. he has wasted my time, my money and my ability to play the game. Yes, it's just a game. But I put allot into it, and expect allot back. That's why I've started to attend private games, and themed Milsim events more. This shit doesn't happen.
I can certaintly understand that. I just find that at games where there are cheaters, I usually only encounter one or two, and I don't let it bother me. Maybe it's because I don't take airsoft quite so seriously as some others, but I figure I've put all this money into guns and gear and games that there is no way I'm going to let one asshat rob me of having fun. I just choose to put the responsibility of me having fun on me instead of the host.


Quote:
How are the two different?

More to the point, I see hosts "lay down the law" at EVERY game. "Don't cheat" is a rule. "This is what you do if you encounter cheating" empowers people to solve their own problems.
Actually, I'm not really sure. I don't want to mention specific games, but I'm going to compare two of them here. Both had very specific rules on what to do if people were cheating. One was complicated, the other wasn't. The complicated one had lots of reported incidents of cheating, the other had pretty much none. I honestly can't say what the difference was. Maybe it was simply the crowed that was out to the game (one was smaller than the other as well, but both were large games).

Quote:
No. I won't. Or they keep doing and end up ruining it for everyone. I give a shit, and am not that selfish. I want EVERYONE to have a good game and ignoring the issue lets it grow.
I didn't say ignore it though, I said don't let it distract you from the game. I know that's probably easier said then done. I still don't think tons of rules about how to deal with someone cheating will help. Like I said -if I encounter someone who cheats, they'll get a mag to the face if it really pisses me off. If it happens more then once, I'll report it. Neither distracts me from the game. Once I've reported it, the responsibility is on the host to deal with it. If I don't have fun from that point on, it's nobody's fault but my own. Yes, this is putting a lot on the host. But nobody ever said hosting a game was easy.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 12:09   #9
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Yet another thread on cheating....I wonder if this rampant topic would make it into Whisper_Kills new mag as it's the latest hot topic to come up since the "clones"?

While I agree with the majority of what's been said in this thread and the other threads, I'd make the following points.

1. The expectation that players/participants are expected to "police/monitor/ref" other players needs to be put out there in black and white (if it's essentially a rule of the game, that's easy to do) as an expectation and obligation. If it is, that's fine because it's then part of the rules. Personally, I'm out there to have a good time and run hard. Confronting "cheaters", malicious or not, does not make my day one iota more enjoyable...I have enough headaches at work already and this is supposed to be my fun time. Pervasively/consistently bad play from an individual will get found out one way or another.

2. The general "if they don't react to being shot...then shoot them more" tactic works 90% of the time. I've emptied plenty of "extra" mags at people over the years, but I still think that the shooter has to make the assumption that they aren't hitting the target. When you can see the "6mm dance" or the bbs bouncing off of them that's obvious, but in the majority of the instances that I've come across there's a justifiable doubt that maybe I've misjudged the range, there's enough cover to deflect my shots, etc... Hell, I've hugged the ground and come through clean in enough shoot-ups to give someone else the benefit of doubt.

When it's obvious, well that's when we're talking about a parlay, right?

3. With some of the recent games where there's strict ammo caps and reload rules...dumping extra rounds on a "hard" target sucks. But given the benefit of doubt in the point above, you're best off moving to a more opportune location or setting something else up that wasting significant %'s of your ammo. Getting your support gunner to lay it on them while you flank for the money shot works too...and 100% smile factor afterwards.

4. Even good players aren't perfect in everyone else's eyes...everyone is going to make mistakes, make a bad call, take a shot that they'll think twice about later, overreact to a situation, etc.... If only the perfect airsofters were playing it'd be a quick 3-way skirmish between the holy trinity...(and they wouldn't use PTWs...LOL )...and if I remember correctly only one of them respawns...

5. My personal take on this "cheating" trend, is that this issue is highlighted for "big/mil-sim/hard-core" games. I gave up playing the paintball fields this year but I don't recall it ever being much of an issue at those skirmish games (hard shots within the mercy range and stupid mercy-mercy-mercy stuff was far more of an issue). To raise the bar of play at the mil-sim events, unfortunately the only way I see it happening cleanly is with it limited to a base of "clean" players. That way there is a fair base of expectation that everyone there is conscious enough of their play that "cheating" will be minimized/eliminated as much as possible.

The problem with the mil-sims at Harm's Way or FTF is that they are open to anyone who signs up. That may be great for creating the scenario...but you get that inconsistency in level of play. At almost every one of those games, there were at least a few first-timers. We brought out at least a few first timers with us to those games. Their level of play was outstanding and we kept a close eye on them (with or without them knowing).

I think that it was Shrike's comments in another thread that what's not happening is a "mentorship" of new players. I couldn't agree more. There are a lot of "splinters" of players, often with no mil-sim experience, who sign up for the "big" games (Head's up Brian, there's 3-5 new players going to the FTF game this 20th). The good ones have a level head and good intentions/motivation to do well. Those types should be brought into the community not have the door slammed in their face.

Having said that a list of "clean" players is the only way that will work for "big Mil-Sims"...I definitely think that getting to the list is a dangerous and slippery slope.

Anyways...maybe I'm not as affected as others. Cheaters don't necessarily ruin my day, but watching a forum fill up with threads/posts about it certainly does.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 12:17   #10
deep in the bush
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extra eyes on field

I use a rule of "political officers"

each team is assigned a number of secret "political officers" they are playing for their team but if they encounter a person not calling hits they are allowed to shoot them and have them walk off field. first offence is a yellow card ....second is banned from my matches period. No recalls.


this helps the host deal with it as he only has a chosen few to watch over field. I find not knowing who is watching for cheating makes people more honest.

It gives each team a series of extra eyes to monitor the players. I have been using this and it seems to work. It does gives some players more charges but it usually never happens as you say. I am lucky as most matches I play with people are more than honest. I have seen players calls hits on themselves with twigs falling from trees. They were not sure if it was bb or not. In fact I did that last match. I was not sure if it was spray from twigs from shots above me or a lucky bounce of the bbs. I called it as a hit.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
I can certaintly understand that. I just find that at games where there are cheaters, I usually only encounter one or two, and I don't let it bother me. Maybe it's because I don't take airsoft quite so seriously as some others, but I figure I've put all this money into guns and gear and games that there is no way I'm going to let one asshat rob me of having fun. I just choose to put the responsibility of me having fun on me instead of the host.



Actually, I'm not really sure. I don't want to mention specific games, but I'm going to compare two of them here. Both had very specific rules on what to do if people were cheating. One was complicated, the other wasn't. The complicated one had lots of reported incidents of cheating, the other had pretty much none. I honestly can't say what the difference was. Maybe it was simply the crowed that was out to the game (one was smaller than the other as well, but both were large games).


I didn't say ignore it though, I said don't let it distract you from the game. I know that's probably easier said then done. I still don't think tons of rules about how to deal with someone cheating will help. Like I said -if I encounter someone who cheats, they'll get a mag to the face if it really pisses me off. If it happens more then once, I'll report it. Neither distracts me from the game. Once I've reported it, the responsibility is on the host to deal with it. If I don't have fun from that point on, it's nobody's fault but my own. Yes, this is putting a lot on the host. But nobody ever said hosting a game was easy.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 12:56   #11
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Cheaters don't necessarily ruin my day, but watching a forum fill up with threads/posts about it certainly does.
++1
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Old July 15th, 2008, 13:05   #12
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Like I said to Poncho last night, 300bb's to the face will turn any cheater into an honest player.

When a player is found cheating, take away his age verification status and banish him from the community (real cheating, not just being shot at from beyond normal range and not noticing the hits).
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Old July 15th, 2008, 14:19   #13
Brian McIlmoyle
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Quote:
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Like I said to Poncho last night, 300bb's to the face will turn any cheater into an honest player.

When a player is found cheating, take away his age verification status and banish him from the community (real cheating, not just being shot at from beyond normal range and not noticing the hits).
Under who's authority? All hosts would have to agree and here in Ontario south there is plenty of games and hosts...

Some are quite willing to overlook transgressions to get their player count up.

If there is going to be a "official ban" of anyone.. there has to be an "official" to do it.
And there has to be an appeal Process... if there is a way out of the community.. there has to be a way back in.

The issue with "cheating" is constant.. but of course .. one man's Cheating asshat" is anothers "hard target"

Personaly I like to be SHOT not plinked with gravity carried BBs coming in by indirect fire lobbing.. And I prefer my targets to demand a good kill as well. I want the satisfaction of a confirmed clean shot.

Ill make one observation ... if you have a game with medics that can heal people on the field .. in the engagement.. you will have lots of complaints about cheating.

When I shoot someone.. only to see him back up 30 seconds later.. Im not thinking "amazing healing properties" I'm thinking "shrugging hits"

Often in our struggle to keep people in the game and minimize the "spawn walk" we set the conditions for cheating alligations.

It happend last year a BW is sounds like it happened at Rawdon..

Dump the medics.. enforce Parley procedures.. and move on.

Host need to be ready to tell chronic cheaters to leave.

And Commanders... its your job to De-escalate issues between teams and players not inflame them. Having a Commander get all hot about cheaters.. will result in entire teams being branded. And this helps no one. Exercise some leadership.. rather than performing as a "ring leader" People will make all kinds of alligations.. most of them exaggerated.. some completly unfounded. Perception is reality. and people in leadership positions leveling alligations can manufacture reality.
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