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Old May 14th, 2008, 11:16   #46
Lisa
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when the 2 concerned parties wish to post please contact a mod to unlock this post, every one else can stay out.

as for the shipping issue, that varies by retailer/manufacturer. i have had my shipping paid for by some and had to front it myself for others and that was for warranty issues, never mind buying something and not liking it.
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Old May 14th, 2008, 12:21   #47
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On the other side of the coin, I also understand SurplusIG's point of view - It's possible that Knyte DID mis-read the answers Vlad gave him and the misunderstanding is on his part - but again, there is no proof of that. Even SurplusIG himself does not dispute that his response wasn't a direct answer to the question asked, but instead, raised a different issue altogether (material versus cut? the buyer didn't ask about the cut.)
For all we know, without quoted PM's to prove the claimed statements, nobody can see if what was claimed was actually said. We also don't know if there was some sort of language barrier involved, and we don't know if there was a comprehension issue somewhere.

Obviously, there was a miscommunication somewhere - it just comes down to finding out where the comprehension issues took place: when the question was being read or when the answer was being read.

In any case, this is what I gather from the situation:

Knyte asked "is the product material the same or very similar as the Frontenac product?"

and SurplusIG responded:
"Yes, it is an authentic cut made by the guys who replaced Frontenac" or something along those lines.

Based on both their arguments, either BOTH parties misunderstood each other or SurplusIG purposely gave an evasive answer that did not directly answer the question and replaced the answer with another answer which not only brought up an alternative selling point, but confused the answer with that alternative point. Knyte then read it and misunderstood the answer as he was expecting a direct answer to his question.

Does that seem to make sense?

Last edited by ILLusion; May 14th, 2008 at 13:21..
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Old May 15th, 2008, 20:32   #48
WARFIGHTER
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Your assessement on the dispute is nice and sounds reasonable but unfortunately it's not at all correct, if he would have said something along those lines, I would have immediately clued in, but honestly, as I said before, my question was something along the lines of:

"Is the material the same or similar as used in Issued bdu's or frontenac?" (and I believe I even said 'light combat cloth material')"

His answer, "Yes it is the same as issued/frontenac." I believe he even said "it is the same 50/50 as issued/frontenac", which is why I was without a doubt sure there was no misunderstanding so I didn't ask him about it any further, and even deleted the PM as his answer was so straightforward when i was cleaning out my inbox.




Pics will be posted soon w/ more details, and an accurate review of this product. Everyone will agree, this is most definately not the finest cadpat bdu available...

Here's most important basics though:

Is it terrible? No, the build is actually decent, although the heavy/non-breathable material make it's uses limited.

Is it exact cdn bdu cut? No, it's reasonably close but there are some differences, they will also be highlighted in the review.

Is the material the same 50/50 cotton/poly as issued? Absolutely not it's nothing even close. (Vlad claimed in this thread first the material was 50/50 Cotton/Nylon, now in his sales thread, he says it's 50/50 cotton/poly, I have no way of telling what it is, it isn't cotton/poly, if it is, it's the thickest most dense cotton/poly I've ever witnessed and heavily treated, it's probably some sort of nylon twill but again I have no way of telling. The jacket is some sort of ripstop or imitation ripstop it is a different material completely than the pants as is obvious in the pics)

Is it CADPAT? HELL NO. It is an ok repro pattern, they seem to have mixed up the frequency of the dark green and black which would have made it closer to real stuff... But it's not a terrible repro.

One thing to add I'm not 100% sure if the issued combat cloth is 50/50 cotton/poly I havn't been to our shop since last week and I have the samples w/ spec sheets there I'll check them this weekend and update if necessary. I'll also go through the samples and try to find something very close to the 2 materials used in the pants/jackets of these bdu's.

Last edited by WARFIGHTER; May 15th, 2008 at 21:06..
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Old May 16th, 2008, 00:40   #49
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Hello guys,

This risks to be a long post and I will be answering all the questions that i've highlighted over the 4 pages of arguement so to whom it may concern only :P

Well this dispute is definitely something for me to learn from.

The picture that I have of the cadpat i am selling hasn't been removed from my thread it was just X'ed for a bit i don't know why but i reuploaded it. The items are not misleading if anyone takes the time to read the description only what's italicized has been added after Knyte's complaint.

Furthermore, we've been in business since before many of us (including myself) were born and the reason why we are the oldest surplus in the country (41 years in business) and remain very successful is not because we do not know how to treat our customer, but rather on the contrary, we and I offer inimitable customer service that surpasses any norm so for those of you that haven't dealt with me in the past and say you will not in the future is a big disappointment for me because I love to serve customers and I love to offer products that are hard to find and hard to pay a good price for.

I agree with everybody that retailers need to know their stock, and for those who haven't been at the store I have over 3000 products and a basement with another 1400 products. When i say products I mean different items not inventory, that we keep in a warehouse. Even with all that stock I still know my products and if i don't i admit it and i ask permission to verify before answering.

About the issue, I will stick with my side of the story because to me that is the truth, Knyte will stick to his side because to him that is the truth. There was an HONEST communication mistake and I might not of been very clear on certain issues to Knyte or he might misread something, all of which I am now aware of and was not prior to the transaction.

I think that I should of elaborated more on what was being purchased and I didn't and i sincerely apoplogize for that mistake and I will not do that again. As a person, I thought I was clear, but it could very well be that I wasn't and I take that responsibility and I offered a refund according to the policy that I have stated in my thread.

Today i went to see the manufacturer of these clothes and he made a mistake on informing me about the material used, it is in fact 50% cotton and 50% polyesther and according to the manufacturer they built like that of the canadian forces. There might be small details that weren't included or altered but that's for safety of being sued by the government. The cotton explains they weight and the polyesther explains the water resistancy. I like this cadpat and those that have baught it at my store like it as well, i've sold to people who wanted to wear it as a fashion item !!

In addition to refunding, to show my apologies and to invite Knyte back as either a customer or a friend in the future i've even offered a lifetime discount. This discount consists of a permanent tax rebate if payed via money order or cash which in the long run will more than compensate for the shipping costs attached to the product, i've offered to take back the product and refund the money payed, and i've offered a 5% discount on the shipping costs for his next purchase.

People have made mistakes in the past and will continue to make mistakes in the future. This incidient is not even close the worth of what has been going on in the community. I want this to end and get back on good terms with everyone who's shown support for both of us.

I will also apologize for responding to Knyte's comment about me being an idiot by being myself immature and replying with indirect insulting sentences. I guess i deserved to be called an idiot for the way that i handled this situation.

I want to thank ILLusion for being very fair and listening to both of our sides of the story and being a neutral median and a friend to both of us.

I've sent a pm to Knyte asking him his phone number so i could call him and apologize verbally and to solve this problem once and for all. I want to be friends and maybe one day play some airsoft with him and not against him :P

To Knyte and all of his friends and teamates, I am sorry for not taking care of this issue professionaly and I hope to be forgiven by Knyte and all of his teamates and also by ILLusion who has sacrificed a lot of his time in reassuring us and providing insight.

Thank you for reading,

Last edited by SurplusIG; May 16th, 2008 at 00:59..
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Old May 16th, 2008, 12:41   #50
WARFIGHTER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurplusIG View Post

Today i went to see the manufacturer of these clothes and he made a mistake on informing me about the material used, it is in fact 50% cotton and 50% polyesther and according to the manufacturer they built like that of the canadian forces. There might be small details that weren't included or altered but that's for safety of being sued by the government. The cotton explains they weight and the polyesther explains the water resistancy. I like this cadpat and those that have baught it at my store like it as well, i've sold to people who wanted to wear it as a fashion item !!

In addition to refunding, to show my apologies and to invite Knyte back as either a customer or a friend in the future i've even offered a lifetime discount. This discount consists of a permanent tax rebate if payed via money order or cash which in the long run will more than compensate for the shipping costs attached to the product, i've offered to take back the product and refund the money payed, and i've offered a 5% discount on the shipping costs for his next purchase.

I will also apologize for responding to Knyte's comment about me being an idiot by being myself immature and replying with indirect insulting sentences. I guess i deserved to be called an idiot for the way that i handled this situation.

First off. Cotton doesn't make something heavy, nor does poly make it water resistant. The t-shirt your wearing is probably cotton or cotton/poly, is it heavy and water resistant? No, it is not. And I've said numerous times, and told you numerous times, the Jacket, is a different material than the pants, the pants, are not water resistant, the jacket, looks like some sort of ripstop material. So, you STILL do not have your facts straight about your own product and I'm really getting frustrated explaining this to you. I'm not sure if your just ignoring me because you think I don't have a clue or what but it's obvious from the pics even they are not the same. Maybe it is some sort of really heavy cotton/poly for the PANTS, but I doubt it, and the jacket is certainly something different.

Secondly, I mean I'll be honest I don't think I'll be doing business w/ you again so the stuff your 'offering' is useless. The only thing I was looking for was a supplier of a decent cadpat BDU that has stock often and it's apparent your not it.

Thirdly, your insults were not indirect, they were direct, as well the reason I called you an idiot, was because you told me to 'educate myself about your product' AFTER you put up additional info when I already had the product...

As I told you via PM, if you want to do business like a big boy you have to know what your selling, you may be able to pawn stuff off on ebay to kiddies who don't have a clue but sometime your bound to encounter someone who actually knows about the product you claim to be selling and when you give that someone false info because you yourself actually have no idea about your own product, and are to stubborn/ignorant to think they might actually know something, this happens.

Honestly, to avoid this entire situation, all you would have had to do was update your thread accordingly, and as I said, upon refund I would have left you neutral unless you covered shipping costs, then I would have left positive.

Now I've wasted who knows how long writing stupid messages due to your stubbornness and unwillingness to give a half-accurate description of your own product in your sales thread and you trying to convince everyone I know nothing and your product is this amazing cadpat, better than issue, frontenac replacing, water shedding, wonder BDU, when it is nothing of the sort.

I'm still waiting on those damn pictures, but as I said as well feel free to use them in your sales thread as you seem incapable of getting some decent pics yourself. I'll even go take some more of someone wearing them side by side w/ actual cadpats for you, just so your customers know what they are getting to avoid any further issues like this. Consider it my gift to you.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 12:44   #51
Mantelope
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Again, unless you're SurplusIG or Knyte, don't post.
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