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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:12   #31
Amos
 
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I don't wanna come forward as a douchebag...

But if 16 year old girls that have never handled an airsoft gun before can walk in off the street and play a full game with 350 FPS and full auto at the local CQB place (Xtreme-Tactics, www.xtreme-tactics.com) I think people that have played airsoft multiple times in their life could handle it...
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:17   #32
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Why would anyone need over 350fps in a CQB environment? A BB's time-on-target is like 1.5 second at the most, from one end to the other, in all but the largest of CQB fields.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:24   #33
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My opinion is 350 FPS max full auto. Experienced it myself and it hurt a little sometimes, airsoft usually does a little, but it was fine. Most guns aren't running up to the max or 349 anyways. If the max is 350 most people would be running 300 or 330.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:34   #34
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Here's an idea...why not set the upper limit based on how much FPS you actually NEED rather than based on the 'average pain tolerance' of those posting? Why cause more pain if it's unnessary?

Possibly have a couple tester games. Talk to some of the players using different FPSs (ranging 300-350, etc). After they've played sufficiently, ask them if they can recall any instance where they felt they NEEDED a little extra FPS/Range to make the shot. I think base it off of that as the CQB facilities will range as will opinions here.

I've only played a handfull of indoor CQB games but I used a stock TM (~270 fps) and and I didn't have much trouble shooting the entire length of the course (accuratly) - which was just over 100ft.

Having guns shooting hotter than they need to be is pointless besides causing more pain and potential for hard feelings, IMO. I would also feel a lot better playing at a facility where I know the FPS limit is based off what the average player NEEDS rather than getting lit up by some body who doesn't care how much pain they inflict on someone else and push their guns to the limit simply because they can.

I think most people prefer to not wear full face masks for comfort and finding something they can aim properly with at the same. I know I'll probably never wear one unless I feel the FPS is higher than it needs to be - I'll sacrifice a little bit of (necessary!) pain for comfort.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:43   #35
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My comment is going to repeat a bunch of what I have read above with a little twist.

I agree whole heartedly that it is the player first and FPS second which dictate the safety of an engagement. However, in the end FPS trumps all as someone will find it very difficult to be dangerous with a 30 fps rifle. Given the type of players prevalent in Canadian airsoft these days I would go after what you CAN control which is velocity limits.

With CQB games I see no need at all to go over 300 fps or use full auto. The accuracy difference is nearly negligible over short distances and I've seen teeth lost on guns shooting under 300 at distances of 30 ft. The only reason I see to accept 320 fps is that there are now many more 'stock' guns which shoot over 300 and I do not believe that the 20 fps is worth having new players downgrade their weapons.

Upgraded guns frankly do nothing but make a player more dangerous until proven otherwise. Of the 100 - 200 players I've met who CLAIM to be mature, safe and awesome ninjas MAYBE 30 of them should have the privilege to carry upgraded gear.

I would vote 320 fps limit, single only, face protection optional.
Oh - and mercies, but that's just because I'm one of those 'pussies' mercies are designed for.

Just as important as above:
Whatever limit you choose, CHRONO all guns!!
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:47   #36
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Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
Here's an idea...why not set the upper limit based on how much FPS you actually NEED rather than based on the 'average pain tolerance' of those posting? Why cause more pain if it's unnessary?
+1000000000

Pain tolerance should not be the limiter. Actual need should be.

Shoot from one engagement point to the next. Is it workable at 280fps? Then that's the limit? 300? Whatever. 400fps is just ridiculous.

We can also discuss trigger control until we're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that unless you are going to completely hand pick who gets to play in your facility, you have to bank on the lowest common denominator.....the people who probably don't have trigger control and who WILL hose you down with full auto to the face at 5 feet.

Should be no need to upgrade a gun for CQB.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:48   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
Here's an idea...why not set the upper limit based on how much FPS you actually NEED rather than based on the 'average pain tolerance' of those posting? Why cause more pain if it's unnessary?

Possibly have a couple tester games. Talk to some of the players using different FPSs (ranging 300-350, etc). After they've played sufficiently, ask them if they can recall any instance where they felt they NEEDED a little extra FPS/Range to make the shot. I think base it off of that as the CQB facilities will range as will opinions here.

I've only played a handfull of indoor CQB games but I used a stock TM (~270 fps) and and I didn't have much trouble shooting the entire length of the course (accuratly) - which was just over 100ft.

Having guns shooting hotter than they need to be is pointless besides causing more pain and potential for hard feelings, IMO. I would also feel a lot better playing at a facility where I know the FPS limit is based off what the average player NEEDS rather than getting lit up by some body who doesn't care how much pain they inflict on someone else and push their guns to the limit simply because they can.

I think most people prefer to not wear full face masks for comfort and finding something they can aim properly with at the same. I know I'll probably never wear one unless I feel the FPS is higher than it needs to be - I'll sacrifice a little bit of (necessary!) pain for comfort.
That's the thing, You will not get "Lit up" by anyone... I'd be happy to vouche for every single Manitoba, and the select few Sask players that I've played with.

Have you seen the hospital before? I doubt a 300 FPS gun would be able to make the shot down some of the hallways...

By full face mask, we're not talking about paintball masks, the slim style Mesh masks work just fine... Hell, most people I know use something like a Balaclava, or a shemagh.

I'm not sure if you've played in the school or not, but when we had the CQB game there this winter we played there using the 350 / full auto rule. The School is MUCH more close quarters than the hospital... We didn't have any complaints about the FPS or anyone overshooting anyone...
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:50   #38
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What part of my post are you referring to? Mercy limits don't actually stop newbies from going full auto point-blank; it could definitely be argued that no-mercy CQB games are safer than regular outdoor games with a mercy rule.
What i'm saying is that when shit happens (aka someone freaks out and lights someone up at close range) i prefer the AEG to be at 350fps than 400fps. Hence why we put limits on the fps of our AEG, for safety.

Anyone not happy can go play in the USA (and over sea). Some places do CQB at 450fps, no mercy/freeze. Enjoy.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:51   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
Having guns shooting hotter than they need to be is pointless besides causing more pain and potential for hard feelings, IMO. I would also feel a lot better playing at a facility where I know the FPS limit is based off what the average player NEEDS rather than getting lit up by some body who doesn't care how much pain they inflict on someone else and push their guns to the limit simply because they can.
This has nothing to do with inflicting more pain on people. It has to do with the costs involved in toning down a gun to fire at these lowwer rates, in comparison to the costs of mask. 90% of the Manitoba players have guns tuned to the 330-350fps range because thats what our indoor arena has been using for the past 3 years (injury-free as previously stated). To get our guns down to 320fps, we would need to
- buy a new spring (20$)
- have our techs install it (25$ labour)
- have our techs reinstall the old spring upon returning (another 25$)
Versus
- buy a 15$ facemask (which should be mandatory for a business owned field IMO)

So for a player who doesnt know how to swap springs themselves, thats 70$ above and beyond the other costs for attending the game.

On one side, players dont want to spend up to 70$ just to be able to play in one game to play at the lowwer FPS restrictions.
On the other side, players dont want to have to wear a facemask for whatever reasons. A cheap low profile face masl (such as the Sensei) is only 15$!!

70$ vs 15$...

Now if the complaint is that the BBs will hurt too much, well, youre playing a sport that involves shooting at each other. If youre afraid of getting a bit hurt, then find a new sport! Like its been said before.. 16 year old girls play in a much tighter arena than the Melville School even @ 350fps.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 18:58   #40
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Just to add to the debate, when we played in Melville at 350 FPS max full auto, it was also FREEZING COLD (-10 to -15 inside), which has GOT to hurt more. But it was still fine.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 19:06   #41
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Amos, Zekk: Notice I did not state what I thought the limits should be. I was mearly stating that (IMO) a better approach to deciding a FPS is on what is required, then possibly take into account things such as what stock guns are shooting at. Now notice a lot of the new players are getting JG and guns shooting 360-420 right out of the box - most will agree that this is too hot for CQB and will need to be downgraded.

Most of the bitching and complaining I've seen at games comes from either cheating or guys getting shot up bad at close range. I don't know about you guys but I play this game for fun. I'm not saying I'm a pussy but when other guys start complaining it usually ruins the game for EVERYONE!

Now my personal opinion on CQB FPS -> 320 max with no min. engagement distances.

EDIT: Games are more fun when you're playing with people you do all the time and get a long great with. It's a lot tougher to laugh off getting lit up by someone you don't know at all. It's easy to forgive a good buddy as you know it was clearly an accident.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 19:13   #42
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G'day,

There is another factor to consider when thinking about FPS limits: Percieved hits. I've used AEGs shooting as low as 160 FPS (Broken nozzle MP5k) and watched the BBs bounce off the target's vest without them noticing, only to have them turn around and "light me up". Some would call that cheating, I chalked it up to wussy hits not being noticeable. I for one would be hard pressed to notice a 300 FPS (closer to 200 by the time it gets to me) hit on my vest or legs. This leads to accusations of cheating, arguments and bad feelings all around. I'd rather get a bruise and KNOW I've been hit than have someone get in my face cos I didn't call hits I didn't feel.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 19:18   #43
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Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
Amos, Zekk: Notice I did not state what I thought the limits should be. I was mearly stating that (IMO) a better approach to deciding a FPS is on what is required, then possibly take into account things such as what stock guns are shooting at. Now notice a lot of the new players are getting JG and guns shooting 360-420 right out of the box - most will agree that this is too hot for CQB and will need to be downgraded.

Most of the bitching and complaining I've seen at games comes from either cheating or guys getting shot up bad at close range. I don't know about you guys but I play this game for fun. I'm not saying I'm a pussy but when other guys start complaining it usually ruins the game for EVERYONE!

Now my personal opinion on CQB FPS -> 320 max with no min. engagement distances.

EDIT: Games are more fun when you're playing with people you do all the time and get a long great with. It's a lot tougher to laugh off getting lit up by someone you don't know at all. It's easy to forgive a good buddy as you know it was clearly an accident.
Agreed, airsoft is for fun and safety shouldn't be determined by pain tolerance, as that varies from person to person. However, we have many people from multiple provinces speaking from experience saying that 350 is safe. Can you give us the 30 fps leeway so that many people won't need to tune down their guns? 30 fps shouldn't be noticeable, unless you're a chrony

The goal here should be to reach a common ground so as to all play together

If we play together, we should get to know each other and then we can start changing the rules one way or the other if necessary. In the end it will be Al's call though. This is not an issue for me personally, but I would hate to see anyone decide not to attend due to fps rules. 350 is safe. IMO, the more people, the more fun! Specially in a building this size!

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Old April 9th, 2008, 19:21   #44
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From what I understand, the engagement distances at the hospital are quite large...

At 50 feet, a 300 FPS gun feels more like 200... I've been shot with 200 FPS springers and such... It's hard to feel it through even my bare weesatch..
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Old April 9th, 2008, 19:22   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick0 View Post
The goal here should be to reach a common ground so as to all play together

If we play together, we should get to know each other and then we can start changing the rules one way or the other if necessary.
Awww. Can't we just all get along? *hugs*
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