Airsoft Canada
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/

Go Back   Airsoft Canada > General > General
Home Forums Register Gallery FAQ Calendar
Retailers Community News/Info International Retailers IRC Today's Posts

Canadian airsoft case law

:

General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 13th, 2008, 12:08   #31
The Saint
 
The Saint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Quebec
Because a feasible plan to change government policy is based on an atmosphere of pre-existing will or at least predisposition for change in our favour. That simply isn't there right now.

Either that, or like Lawdog said, someone could make a court case out of it. Someone rich and with a lot of free time, anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
oh god this is turning into another one of those threads
You sound surprised.
__________________
"The Bird of Hermes is My Name, Eating My Wings to Make Me Tame."
The Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 12:25   #32
Lawdog
 
Lawdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Aurora
Quote:
Originally Posted by acorn_giblet View Post
Lawdog:
How complex is it to start the lobbying process? Is it something that could be done part-time by a few committed individuals?
Establishing the legality of Airsoft guns would undoubtedly be immensely beneficial to the sport...

If the game hosts started passing around petitions as well surely it would be beneficial...
As has been discussed before I have lobbied provincially, federally and now internationally on behalf of various organizations.

Proper lobbying is time consuming and expensive, and having unco-ordinated efforts where everyone is not delivering exactly the right message in the same way can be a big problem. In one case I met with a minister who told me that a member of one of the orgs I represented had told him that we wanted X, when we really wanted Y. He basically told me to come back when we had our crap together, so we had to discpline the member and probably lost 6 months or so.

Lobbying also requires infrastructure. If your long term dream is to lobby for better treatment of airsoft (which is federal issue, a much more expensive and complicated place to lobby) you need a really good grassroots system in place. For instance I can walk into a meeting and say, "I represent OTLA an organization of 1100 lawyers with members in every riding in the province" when I lobby in Ontario (just as an example).

So, and this is my opinion only, that if someday (not tommorrow) you wanted change in this regard you should start with local and then provincial airsoft organizations with membership lists, properly registered, with lots of dues paying members and a good constitution etc and then you can think about funding a lobbying effort (I do fundraising now for lobbying, and let me tell you, it is NOT cheap to even get meetings). I am doing some projects provincially and our we are buying a bunch of tickets for the Liberal Heritage Dinner coming up, and the tickets are $800 a pop.

Until airsoft is a well organized sport (which may not be something people want), I think the idea of petitions, letters to politicians, lobbying etc is premature.

Ld
__________________
Quote:
When the elephants fight, it is bad for the grass. When the elephants make love, it is also bad for the grass.
Kenyan Proverb

Last edited by Lawdog; February 13th, 2008 at 12:43..
Lawdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 12:39   #33
acorn_giblet
 
acorn_giblet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Downtown Toronto
Thanks for the detailed response!
I think that proper Airsoft Organizations would be beneficial for all of us. I understand that some people wouldn't want to pay dues etc but surely we could come up with a tiered membership system to get around that.

I'm originally from Australia and unfortunately Airsoft guns ARE classified as firearms there... therefore they have a proper nation-wide organization that arranges imports of airsoft guns and also organizes the games. Perhaps the Canadian community could take a page out of their book?

http://www.airsoftaustralia.com

I certainly don't see any drwabacks to having properly organized 'clubs'... if some of the better known hosts got in and endorsed the idea then surely we could set something up...
acorn_giblet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 12:51   #34
Rukus
 
Rukus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Work Point, BC
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
oh god this is turning into another one of those threads
It already has lol.

I've seen petitions go around before and I signed them thinking that it wouldn't hurt in the very very off chance it did actually amount to something, but LD is right. Organization of airsoft is the first step at any rate so that you don't have 50 people asking for different things. One voice is all that is needed and everyone has to be on board to ensure we don't compromise the integrity of our organization if we started one or add unnecessary questions that could work in the reverse and just cost us more in the long run. Having a paying membership to a National Organization would in some ways be looked at in a positive light because we aren't just a bunch of people saying we want AEG's to be allowed across the boarder but we are now investing our money into this and showing that we do have a vested interest into the continuation of this sport, not to mention if we did have a spokesman could help in getting the message across to others because as LD said it's not cheap to try and bring about change. We also need to be well prepared to deal with more public opinion on what we do in our game. I did like the ideas by that organization in the US that was posted on the boards by one of our members I would like to be apart of an organization similar to that if one were to happen in Canada. But until then watch and shoot.
__________________
Mint!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackthorne View Post
Its a good thing stupidity doesnt have mass or whole sections of this board would collapse in and destroy themselves in a stupidity singularity.
Rukus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 12:54   #35
kalnaren
 
kalnaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by acorn_giblet View Post
Thanks for the detailed response!
I think that proper Airsoft Organizations would be beneficial for all of us. I understand that some people wouldn't want to pay dues etc but surely we could come up with a tiered membership system to get around that.

I'm originally from Australia and unfortunately Airsoft guns ARE classified as firearms there... therefore they have a proper nation-wide organization that arranges imports of airsoft guns and also organizes the games. Perhaps the Canadian community could take a page out of their book?

http://www.airsoftaustralia.com

I certainly don't see any drwabacks to having properly organized 'clubs'... if some of the better known hosts got in and endorsed the idea then surely we could set something up...
Spend a few years in Canadian airsoft, learn what the situation is really like here first before trying to suggest a bunch of things.
__________________

Quote:
"Someone in a Prius tried to race me at a stop sign the other day. I couldn't believe it. I had him for the first 100 feet or so but I can only walk so fast."
kalnaren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 13:00   #36
acorn_giblet
 
acorn_giblet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Downtown Toronto
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnaren View Post
Spend a few years in Canadian airsoft, learn what the situation is really like here first before trying to suggest a bunch of things.
Anyone that is trying to contribute to your sport should be considered an ally, so try to keep a civil tongue in your head.
It's not like I'm running around suggesting we all smuggle in guns from the states, I am familiar with the situation here.
acorn_giblet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 13:18   #37
Arnisador
Administrator
 
Arnisador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Send a message via MSN to Arnisador
If you really want to see how effective lobbying can be, do some research on the current gun lobby in Canada and see how effective they've been at getting laws to change to benefit the gun owner. Then consider how long they've been working on their lobby, their organization levels, then number of gun owners that can be potentially affected, and the amount of funding involved and already spent.

THEN compare that to the airsoft community, and ask yourself again, if this is a feasible venture.

I'm not saying its impossible, but its damn improbable right now.
__________________
It doesn't seem much, to stir a man's soul. Just a moth eaten rag on a worm eaten pole. But 'tis the deeds that were done 'neath this moth eaten rag, when the pole was a staff, and the rag was a flag.

CUM CATAPULTAE PROSCRIPTAE ERUNT TUM SOLI PROSCRIPT CATAPULTAS HABEBUNT
Arnisador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 13:22   #38
acorn_giblet
 
acorn_giblet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Downtown Toronto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnisador View Post
If you really want to see how effective lobbying can be, do some research on the current gun lobby in Canada and see how effective they've been at getting laws to change to benefit the gun owner. Then consider how long they've been working on their lobby, their organization levels, then number of gun owners that can be potentially affected, and the amount of funding involved and already spent.

THEN compare that to the airsoft community, and ask yourself again, if this is a feasible venture.

I'm not saying its impossible, but its damn improbable right now.
That's a very good point. I guess it heavily depends on the public's attitude toward the situation. If a politician doesn't think that a lot of people are going to appreciate him / her doing something then they are not going to waste their time on it...
acorn_giblet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 13:25   #39
Arnisador
Administrator
 
Arnisador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Send a message via MSN to Arnisador
Quote:
Originally Posted by acorn_giblet View Post
I guess it heavily depends on the public's attitude toward the situation.

and there you have the crux of the problem.


the stereotypical nutshell response is...the soccer mom lobby is bigger than the airsoft lobby (and gun lobby combined for that matter).

Not 100% accurate by any means, but it gives some insight to the challenges facing ANYONE who has a hobby where gun-like objects are involved.
__________________
It doesn't seem much, to stir a man's soul. Just a moth eaten rag on a worm eaten pole. But 'tis the deeds that were done 'neath this moth eaten rag, when the pole was a staff, and the rag was a flag.

CUM CATAPULTAE PROSCRIPTAE ERUNT TUM SOLI PROSCRIPT CATAPULTAS HABEBUNT
Arnisador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 13:47   #40
acorn_giblet
 
acorn_giblet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Downtown Toronto
hmmm... working out ways to cast airsoft in a positive light with that sort of crowd is difficult.
Unless their kids are active in the sport they are likely to want to ban it outright.

Trying to portray airsoft as "training" wouldn't work either... they would ask "training for what?".

Interesting problem.
acorn_giblet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 13:50   #41
Brian McIlmoyle
8=======D
 
Brian McIlmoyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Toronto
Clarification

No one has ever said that the Activity of shooting people with simulated weapons is not a legitimate "sport"

The Activity of "airsoft" using airsoft guns to shoot one another is exactly the same activity as paintball... its the same game.. and no one is questioning if the activity is "legitimate" it clearly is.

That is not an issue... anyone who is fixated on the whole "legitimizing the Sport" aspect of this is totaly missing the point and agitating to legitimize something that is already perceived as legitimate.. so it is wasted effort and illustrates a clear missunderstanding of the core issues.

No one is questioning your right to use legally possesed airsoft guns to shoot people who agree to be shot. Its not illegal therefore it is legitimate.

The ONLY issue is the legal restrictions on the transfer of replica firearms between individuals and the retailing of Airsoft guns to individuals in contravention of the laws precluding such transfer of replicas.

That is where any "lobby" effort has to be focused... and if you want to pitch in to common cause then your effort and money is best spent on the existing well organized and funded firearms lobby... if they are successful in getting the government to open the issue of firearms laws.. and crack open the law for changes.. we could reasonably piggy back changes to the replica laws on such changes.

So get a PAL, buy a Gun and get active in that community..its your best hope to help this community.
__________________
Brian McIlmoyle
TTAC3 Director
CAPS Range Officer
Toronto Downtown Age Verifier

OPERATION WOODSMAN

If the tongue could cut as the sword does, the dead would be infinite
Brian McIlmoyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 15:05   #42
Dog Face Killer
 
Dog Face Killer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
wow...i started something i think! lol <sigh>

Anyhow...i wanted to know what peoples experiences have been when trying to import guns from Asia, specifically, have you been harassed or charged by the local PD, or does customs just send you a "you ain't getting your gun" letter and thats the end of it?
__________________
Oh wait, was she a great big fat person?
Dog Face Killer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 15:08   #43
Arnisador
Administrator
 
Arnisador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Send a message via MSN to Arnisador
Just make sure you curb your enthusiasm for airsoft (at least on some of the gun forums) a bit There are some in the shooting community that have a less than enthusiastic welcome for airsofters even if they are shooters...in fact its around the same enthusiasm that some airsofters have for tournament paintballers.
__________________
It doesn't seem much, to stir a man's soul. Just a moth eaten rag on a worm eaten pole. But 'tis the deeds that were done 'neath this moth eaten rag, when the pole was a staff, and the rag was a flag.

CUM CATAPULTAE PROSCRIPTAE ERUNT TUM SOLI PROSCRIPT CATAPULTAS HABEBUNT
Arnisador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 16:05   #44
tunabreath
 
tunabreath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
I apologize for stirring the pot some more, but the first few posts have me confused all over again...

It's stated several times that if something fires at more than 407fps, it is considered a firearm. I thought to meet the definition of a firearm, it needed both a velocity over 500fps AND a muzzle energy of 5.7 Joules.
It was my understanding that the 407fps lower limit was for defining replicas, not for defining firearms; ie, below 407fps is considered not high enough to cause significant bodily harm, ergo, it would be a replica if it meets the appearance definitions of a replica. However, if it is above 407fps, it is not yet considered a firearm.

I was under the impression that this gap was specifically to give exception to air rifles/pellet guns, and the existence of PAL rated airguns firing at or over 500fps, along with non-PAL airguns below 500fps in Canada correlates with this.

So then, are there air rifles in Canada firing below 407fps? If so, how do they avoid the replica definition? If an airsoft gun were purpose built from the manufacturer to fire between 407 and 500fps, what would it be considered?
(This shouldn't limit them to semi-auto/5 rounds because they aren't PAL classified firearms at >500fps and >5.7 Joules)

I'm basically wondering how air rifles avoid being considered replicas (notably all those CO2 NBBs), seeing as how they do look like firearms, but aren't.
__________________
Vita, Passione e Pistole
tunabreath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 16:19   #45
The Saint
 
The Saint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Quebec
Quote:
Originally Posted by tunabreath View Post
I'm basically wondering how air rifles avoid being considered replicas (notably all those CO2 NBBs), seeing as how they do look like firearms, but aren't.
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...807#post627807

Specifically, the part where me and MacGuyver are going back and forth.
__________________
"The Bird of Hermes is My Name, Eating My Wings to Make Me Tame."
The Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
ReplyTop


Go Back   Airsoft Canada > General > General

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Airsoft Canada
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.