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BB weight vs. fps drop *rough* testing

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Old December 24th, 2007, 01:58   #31
Donster
 
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so generally, i should stick with .28s- .30s, which was my original plan from the beginning. great info though. do you think you can simplify it even more, such as with a chart or graph?
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Old December 24th, 2007, 02:04   #32
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Interesting topic CND_Stalker.. I tested a bunch of BB weights for a while as well before settling on a weight for my Maruzen L96. These are the numbers I can remember off hand.. they're by no means a scientifically controlled test, or even done on the same day.. But thought I'd add my 2 cents in there.

on a Maruzen L96 6.01mm Barrel and.. i can't remember the spring..

KSC perfect
.20 440 fps
.25 360 fps

Maruzen SGM
.29 295-320 fps

Digicon
.36 260-290 fps
.43 210-230 fps


These are by no means controlled tests, but I can tell you through playing games that .29 Maruzen grand master BB's are by far the most accurate and have the most reach -which gives us BA users the highest chance of survival. :P

I've tried .30's as well. and although they fly to a similar distance and FPS the consistency is nowhere near that of .29 SGM's, which effectively reduces your maximum effective range by about as much as 30%. (a guesstimate). But yes, it's that significant.

I'm not talking about FPS consistency, but the consistency of flight path. SGM's give you a very nice arch and doesn't deviate much from your scope view. If you fire a SGM at target A, it'll be affected by wind, pressure, all that great stuff, hitting your target point say 1ft left and 2ft low. If you aim 1 ft right and 2 ft higher. you'll hit your target the second shot spot on. (unless winds change dramatically in the time it takes you to chamber your next shot.)

With most other brands I've tried, this just isn't true. the bb's fly almost randomly. Some deviate more than others and when you're lucky you'll get 2 that take on the same flightpath. but chances are, if you're firing 5 bolt action shots at someone they probably would have seen you by then and will have emptied a highcap in your general direction. (yeah, I know I don't hide very well)

If you can't afford or can't get ahold of the SGM's the .36's aren't too terrible. but probably 20% less range than the SGM's. .20 and .25 are unusable in a BA at 450ish FPS. (field limit) They simply curve randomly making any accurate shots a test of luck. .43's are far too heavy and SLOW. They take a very predictable parabolic arch. Unfortunately they drop too fast (to the point where it leaves your scope view at maximum ranges, making shots hard to track, and thus.. hard to adjust.) It also flies so slow that people can see them comming and dodge them. They are consistent I guess, just not very useful in a game giving you almost AEG range at a slower ballistic speed and ROF.


So there you have it. Give them SGM's a shot and you'll be convinced. (provided it's not your rifle that's not consistent.) I run a 6.01 barrel. I have never had a Jam with SGMs. on my 3rd .36 digicon round, it jams. That says something about their quality control, I don't use any other brand in that gun. I've gone through around 600 rounds of SGM's in the gun's lifetime and it's always performed wonderfully and has had many many kills. I've never actually measured the ranges.. but if you guys know the Flag raiders Omaha map, the optimum max range that I've found to be reliable is from the top floor in the boat to the bunker. You can hit head sized targets from the boat through the bunker window at around 30% accuracy with SGM's at field limit BA guns and light wind.
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Old December 24th, 2007, 02:28   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pizzainthemorning View Post
What about hop up friction? I mean, actual contact with the bb takes place during the hop up process. The heavier the bb, the more hop up you have to put on. The more friction:

1. The greater a drop in fps (wouldn't there be?)

2. The greater the chance of shooting off course. We've all seen the hop up pictures in the manuals. When you add too much hop, the bb goes anywhere and everywhere. I don't know, it just seems like brushing the bb with something physically solid (so not like air) would have some kind of effect.

I know heavier bb's are great at maintaining momentum and staying straight in the wind, but wouldn't hop up friction cancel that out a bit?

I use 0.28's in a 400+ fps gun myself, though, I don't know, I'm not always convinced they're "that much" better. Once I get in the parts to fix it I'll have to test.

Alex
Yes, hop up does take some of the velocity down, but not that much if it's set right. Heavier BBs, such as 0.28g, are more stable at greater distances, hence they range benefit, you can keep more of them on target (in the area of the target I should say) than if you were using lighter BBs. These tests were with my CA M24, and the hop up was set for 0.30g BBs, so the net velocities would be higher than what I recorded, but then again I didn't do this to point out what the spring and other parts are putting out, I just used it because it's a consistant gun.

Regarding the fps drop from hop up settings, I just rebuilt one of my MP5s for a friend to use at an indoor game yesterday. Stock spring, 330mm barrel, bearing spring guide, new Deep Fire piston and head, and MadBull hop up rubber. Hop up off was netting me between 335-340fps using 0.20g BBs, then I set my hop up for straightest range past 150ft (as good as I could see white BBs flying across snow) using 0.25g BBs and chronied again, largely I sat around the 318-320fps area using 0.20g again. So the drop with hop up is there, just not that big.
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Old December 24th, 2007, 02:33   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valcrow View Post
Interesting topic CND_Stalker.. I tested a bunch of BB weights for a while as well before settling on a weight for my Maruzen L96. These are the numbers I can remember off hand.. they're by no means a scientifically controlled test, or even done on the same day.. But thought I'd add my 2 cents in there.

on a Maruzen L96 6.01mm Barrel and.. i can't remember the spring..

KSC perfect
.20 440 fps
.25 360 fps

Maruzen SGM
.29 295-320 fps

Digicon
.36 260-290 fps
.43 210-230 fps


These are by no means controlled tests, but I can tell you through playing games that .29 Maruzen grand master BB's are by far the most accurate and have the most reach -which gives us BA users the highest chance of survival. :P

I've tried .30's as well. and although they fly to a similar distance and FPS the consistency is nowhere near that of .29 SGM's, which effectively reduces your maximum effective range by about as much as 30%. (a guesstimate). But yes, it's that significant.

I'm not talking about FPS consistency, but the consistency of flight path. SGM's give you a very nice arch and doesn't deviate much from your scope view. If you fire a SGM at target A, it'll be affected by wind, pressure, all that great stuff, hitting your target point say 1ft left and 2ft low. If you aim 1 ft right and 2 ft higher. you'll hit your target the second shot spot on. (unless winds change dramatically in the time it takes you to chamber your next shot.)

With most other brands I've tried, this just isn't true. the bb's fly almost randomly. Some deviate more than others and when you're lucky you'll get 2 that take on the same flightpath. but chances are, if you're firing 5 bolt action shots at someone they probably would have seen you by then and will have emptied a highcap in your general direction. (yeah, I know I don't hide very well)

If you can't afford or can't get ahold of the SGM's the .36's aren't too terrible. but probably 20% less range than the SGM's. .20 and .25 are unusable in a BA at 450ish FPS. (field limit) They simply curve randomly making any accurate shots a test of luck. .43's are far too heavy and SLOW. They take a very predictable parabolic arch. Unfortunately they drop too fast (to the point where it leaves your scope view at maximum ranges, making shots hard to track, and thus.. hard to adjust.) It also flies so slow that people can see them comming and dodge them. They are consistent I guess, just not very useful in a game giving you almost AEG range at a slower ballistic speed and ROF.


So there you have it. Give them SGM's a shot and you'll be convinced. (provided it's not your rifle that's not consistent.) I run a 6.01 barrel. I have never had a Jam with SGMs. on my 3rd .36 digicon round, it jams. That says something about their quality control, I don't use any other brand in that gun. I've gone through around 600 rounds of SGM's in the gun's lifetime and it's always performed wonderfully and has had many many kills. I've never actually measured the ranges.. but if you guys know the Flag raiders Omaha map, the optimum max range that I've found to be reliable is from the top floor in the boat to the bunker. You can hit head sized targets from the boat through the bunker window at around 30% accuracy with SGM's at field limit BA guns and light wind.
I used 0.29g SGM BBs for two years and liked them, but found they were a bit too affected by wind (or yaw from sidemoving air causing them to overhop more on one side than the other, maing them hook). Recently I've been getting and testing 0.30g BBs since I ran out of SGMs and want to see other types and how they run in a 500fps rifle. SGMs were so affected by being pushed around past 170ft or so that it made even badly sized Straight 0.36g BBs a bit more satisfactory to use in less than ideal conditions.

Thanks for your input, it's appreciated to have sinec it adds more info to the 'tool kits' of the other guys, helping them sort out tuning their guns, be it BA or AEG.

BTW, 80fps drop betwen 0.20g and 0.25g?
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Old December 24th, 2007, 15:58   #35
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Yeah it wasn't the most scientific testing for chonoing on my part.. I did it almost a year ago, and those are the numbers roughly what I could remember.. So it may not be entirely accurate, the .20 and .29 are the only ones I'm pretty sure are around the right ball park.

But you're right. strong winds make it difficult to shoot something that far away with any kind of accuracy with SGMs.. but at least, if it's gonna be affected by the wind say 6 ft left of your target, you can roughly compensate and hope the wind stays the same. :P the SGM's seem to go straightest even with wind for me, until that point where it looses it's hop up momentum. I think it has to do with a combination of the hop up and wind, but my .36's go crazy about half the time, it looks like wind pulling it, but more likely a bad spin on the hop up in combination with the wind. The SGM's flight path looks really stable it's got that 'almost falling' equilibrium quality to it... the first 130 ft or so it really doesn't seem to be affected by any kind of wind or external factors. The .36's look like they're struggling to keep height. and .25's look like the hop up spin is about to tear the thing into pieces.

Maybe you're right though. .29's are the sweet spot for 450fps guns. maybe .30's are the ones for 500fps.

Oh! forgot about one last note, sort of related... Heavier bb's tend to hurt more (duh right?). When I was using .36's people complained once in a while even when the range was pretty far. I've shot my buddies at gbb range with .29's with only minor reports of pain. I wouldn't do the same thing with a .36... Although sometimes people don't feel the SGM's hit at long ranges.


As for the FPS drops for weight. Are you using a spring or a gas rifle? I heard gas rifles tend to loose less FPS for weight.. barrel length might also be a factor.. (mine's 495mm) But my fps drops are quite significant.
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Old December 24th, 2007, 16:53   #36
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NOw that yo mention it, it reminds me of something between spring and gas.

My CA M24 is a spring gun, 150SP spring in it right now. Spread between my 0.20g and 0.43g is what, roughly 130fps? 464fps (0.20g) vs. 337fps (0.43g). After I installed a tightbore in my KSC Glock 19 and using propane on a warm day, after chronying my MP5 I cleared out some of the 0.43g BBs I had loaded in there for the game and put a couple 0.20g so I could see what it was shooting at. Both shots came up as 341fps using the 0.20g, but the next round was a 0.43g and it came out at 265fps. Heavier BBs stay in the barrel onger, allowing the gas to expand more. This kinda was another example of something Illusion was saying about heavier BBs in gas guns not losing as much fps compared to spring guns. So instead of losing the 130fps as in the spring gun, I lost only 75fps or so in my G19.

I also have a KJW M700 gas sniper rifle that I'll be running through some tests as well, but since it's gas powered and has an adjustable valve, it's rather pointless to post up anything about it since every gas rifle is different.
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Old December 24th, 2007, 17:24   #37
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CDN_Stalker, you'll have some .30 bastards shortly, I sent some packages up to Testtube last week - should be there shortly. Interested in your feedback on them. I honestly don't know *how* they will perform - I've always felt .28 was sort of the outer limit for the stock and up to 400fps guns we tend to play with. I'm worried the .30 weight will be too much for regular field guns and too little for snipers. I'm letting the community be the judge and if they like it I'll carry more of it.

I've often gone to this particular site for BB ballistics, http://cybersloth.org/airsoft/trajectory/index.htm , and its never steered me wrong. There is a lot of misinformation out there - Stalkers practical tests confirm what I've observed and what I have read - although the 10fps:0.02gr rule is a new and easy to remember twist - thanks!
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Old December 24th, 2007, 18:08   #38
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Hehe, thanks a bunch Scarecrow, I appreciate your getting some "heavy bastards" in and I will run them through their paces and let everyone know how they work out in GBBs and sniper rifles (and will chrony and compare to the SIIS rounds I currently have, be nice to compare to KSC Perfect 0.30g as well).

Be nice if we could get something heavier, along the lines of 0.33g or 0.34g custom made and be able to outclass any of the Straight/Digicon ammo. THAT would be sweet! And would corner the market in North America.

To those wondering about my statement about using 0.30g in my GBBs, check this out:

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...light=g19+90ft

And compare to your previous experiences with GBBs using 0.20g or even 0.25g BBs. I think this might change a few minds and make people start supporting more 0.30g Bastards as far as sales go in the future. If 0.29g and 0.30g BBs can penetrate cardboard at 90ft when shot from a little KSC Glock 19...............
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Old December 24th, 2007, 18:52   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker View Post
Be nice if we could get something heavier, along the lines of 0.33g or 0.34g custom made and be able to outclass any of the Straight/Digicon ammo. THAT would be sweet! And would corner the market in North America.
I can now (as of the .30) make any ammo up to .43gr I believe. Beyond that I am not sure, I would have to check - its just a matter of it being viable in terms of quantity. But I could have really odd weights made if there is a 'sweet' weight discovered that has a broader more general appeal. I was going to withhold judgement until I see how people respond to the .30gr product...
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Old December 24th, 2007, 19:30   #40
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Good plan, but can you see about a midweight BB in the meantime? 0.30g tends to be too light, 0.36g tends to be too heavy sometimes, but is largely an inconsistant variance (I recently posted some measurements of various BBs of the sniper variety, here it is, check out how bad they are):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalker
Here it is:

Quote:
author=jpae73 link=topic=11036.msg110616#msg110616 date=1150420855
ONLY A REFERENCE. YOUR MEASUREMENT WILL VARY.

if anyone care to know. here it is.
first how i checked the size. random 10 bbs out of each box(sgm&tm).
each bb is measured in 8 places using mitutoyo digital (.00005" read-.00001" off one micron) micrometer.
measurements are in mm.

manufacturer's claim.
maurzen sgm : dia 5.96mm +/-0.01m(.2346" +/-.0004")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my measurements :
#1 5.951-5.961
#2 5.968-5.965
#3 5.966-5.971
#4 5.959-5.963
#5 5.957-5.962
#6 5.959-5.964
#7 5.948-5.954
#8 5.954-5.958
#9 5.950-5.959
#10 5.959-5.968

variation:5.948-5.971
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


manufacturer's claim.
tm superior grade .3g : dia 5.95mm +/-10 micron(.2343" +/-.0004"-same tol as sgm)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my measurements :
#1 5.939-5.946
#2 5.943-5.963
#3 5.941-5.947
#4 5.941-5.945
#5 5.943-5.947
#6 5.945-5.947
#7 5.940-5.943
#8 5.945-5.948
#9 5.938-5.942
#10 5.945-5.950

variation 5.938-5.963
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


manufacturer's claim.
straight .36g(white) : none
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my measurements :
#1 5.871-5.959
#2 5.887-5.924
#3 5.875-5.932
#4 5.867-5.931
#5 5.883-5.932

stopped checking.

variation 5.867-5.959 ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


manufacturer's claim:
http://www.airsplat.com/Itemdesc.asp?CartId=EVEREST{67636213-1D41-4D2C-97B7-554F8D16648B}&ic=B25%2DAEV2%2D3000&eq=&Tp=
airsoft elite .25g(white)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my measurements :
#1 5.944-5.972
#2 5.933-5.962
#3 5.935-5.971
#4 5,924-5.958
#5 5.903-5.966
that's enought. stopped

variation 5.903-5.972
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

both sgm .29 and tm sg .30g are impressive when it comes to size vary.you can disregard .003mm off(tm)the manufacturer's tolerance. it's only .0001" and it could be human error.

on staight .36g white bbs, not only bb size vary one bb to another bb, a bb itself is out of round quite a bit. on average, there is .052mm(.002") variation in a single bb. how will it shoot? i have no comment.
either something in between 0.30g and 0.36g would be great, or just real nice 0.36g would be popular as well. Too many people complaint about shitty BBs in the heavier weights, and that match grade BBs only come in less than midweight. Seriously, there'd be a good market outside of Canada for GOOD heavy BBs.
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