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Old December 29th, 2007, 21:21   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawscal View Post
well my gun shoots about 20+ bps so that dosent help
Ture but if in the hands of me I'd be doing 1 second bursts if that. Hehe, I'm pretty moderate for the most part with BB consumption, generally 200-400rds per game day (more if a larger field and wind is a pain). Least amount I've ever shot for a full game was half an MP5 low cap at a downed pilot Droc and I chased into the woods, then later after dark 4 shots from my sniper rifle, netted me 3 kills. So that's what, maybe 30rds max for the night? Lol, I think my highest ammo usage was during Quick Pass games, musta used up at least 600rds.
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Old December 29th, 2007, 21:23   #47
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Well of course a sniper will use less than a support gunner
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Old December 29th, 2007, 21:26   #48
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But I only do the sniper role once in a while, mostly I'm a flanker/hunter, but even if I was in the support role I wouldn't be using up huge amounts of ammo. Still, for a support gunner you are best to use a mix of 0.20g and 0.25g, that way yo uget a better spread of veolcity and brush cutting power. Thinking about using 0.30g BBs is serious overkill and will make your wallet cry for no reason.
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Old December 29th, 2007, 21:33   #49
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yeah the .30 are for my systema and with that gun i use a lot less bbs than my normal AEGs however during a long game i can use about 15 mags worth of bbs , thats still 1800 bbs. Il just get KCS perfects instead, more for less
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Old December 29th, 2007, 21:58   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawscal View Post
Scarecrow, Can you please explain why bb bastard .30 bb are 5 times the price of their .20 counterparts? I dont think plastic is that expensive!
No, plastic is generally not expensive. But .28 and beyond are not pure ABS either and there is a cost in forming it properly for airsoft use, otherwise people would be crumpling up plastic shopping bags into BBs and shooting that. I can say I am the ONLY vendor to spec out his own product, so my costs are more than just the odd rice bag purchase of an offshore gray market BB manufacturer.

I would suggest if you think its a good deal based on its quality, its worth the money. You're leading me to having to defend myself by slagging KSC or any other vendors by pointing out differences that experienced players already know. But I will say you get what you pay for, and if you have an expensive gun, a disintegrated BB in your feedpath will quickly establish the value of a well made more expensive product over a cheaper lower quality one. I've never had that happen with any BB in my product line. I know that KSC and AE can't make that claim. Point of fact, AE's blew in my first M4 and caused me about $200 worth of repairs, and only because I bought Gump dinner that night. After than I was much more careful about my ammo selection. That also ended my relationship with AE and when I saught out a solution that I had more control over.

I leave my value pricing on the highest volume products which is the .20 and .25 product line, which most of my customers are grateful for. .28s kick it up a notch and are for those concerned with accuracy but semi-auto and full-auto use, the .30 product I envision to be used by those engaging in sniping precision rather than patterning or outright hosing - in either GBB, AEG or PTW. I don't see someone using .30's in a highcap...

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Originally Posted by pawscal View Post
I rather support a canadian buisness also but 75$ worth of bbs per game? No thanks.
... then again I would not discourage it either.

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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
3000 rounds of any weight per game is a bit prodigious.... If your trigger finger's that heavy, maybe you don't need to switch to 0.30g.... If you switch to 0.30g, maybe you won't need 3000 rounds to hit something.
My point exactly. Thank you Saint.

Incidently, I have approximately 180 bags of .30. After that they are gone and I will evaluate if I want to do another run. Frankly the .30 run is me sticking my big toe in the water and responding to people like Sha Do and CDN_Stalker who have been after me to produce a cost effective accurate sniping round that can be used in both a BA or an electric in semi or full auto. Both of them will be fielding my product this summer and will give me the yeah or nay on the product and on that and customer response I will decide if I will carry it in the future.
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Last edited by Scarecrow; December 29th, 2007 at 22:03..
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Old December 29th, 2007, 22:14   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawscal View Post
3000 rds thats on a small game by the way lol
I would suggest the .25 option for you. At $5/1000 its priced competitively with other local suppliers and you can hose with that without losing sleep over the cost. I do believe with a proper setup 1 .28 or 1 .30 round will hit a target that will take a patterning player 5 rounds to hit. So pick your poison.

... then again you can always run up to them and stab them with a rubber knife if expending that much ammo creates a personal liquidity crisis...
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Old January 10th, 2008, 19:54   #52
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Scarecrow, here ya go buddy! I give a very large yay, you'll see why when I'm done with my initial post on the Airsoft Snipers forum regarding your new 0.30g.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalker

Anyways, I got a bag of the new BB Bastard 0.30g BBs last night (thanks a tonne Testtube, my local Bastard, and Scarecrow, the head Bastard), and have some interesting info. As many know, they come in small (apparently custom made size, Scarecrow thinking about snipers and how little we carry and how little space we have to carry it) bags of 1000 count.

Anyways, Last night when Testie was over (and Hazard, lots of gun work going on), I set about chronying the new 0.30g Bastards. I used 0.20g Bastards to set a reference point because of all the M24 work I've been doing the past week (BTW, wrap your hop up rubber in plumber's teflon tape before you insert into your hop up unit, this eliminates any air leak under the rubber itself, as well as any chance of ballooning.......... rough estimates look like I gained a 20-30fps increase from my particular setup). Unfortunately the only BB I had to compare the Bastards to were the stock of SIIS 0.30g. Check out the interesting numbers I got:

Bastard 0.20g BBs:

508.4
508.4
506.6
511.9
Average: 508.0fps

Deviation: 5.3fps

SIIS 0.30g BBs

439.8
437.2
442.9
432.3
Average: 438.0

Deviation: 10.6fps

Bastard 0.30g BBs

458.7
458.0
455.6
453.2
Average: 456.4

Deviation: 5.5fps

So, just those rough tests of a small portion shows that the Bastards are MUCH better made, a larger size, better consistancy. And, to give Scarecrow a little poke, my general rule of thumb regarding rough fps drop per BB weight............... (why can't I remember or find the damn info, something along the lines of a drop of ~10fps per 0.02g increase in BB weight.......... Crap!!!!).

Last edited by CDN_Stalker; January 10th, 2008 at 20:00..
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Old January 10th, 2008, 23:01   #53
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Interesting results CS - I find the deviation numbers very very interesting. It supports what I've been saying about the extra little things I've done to my batch to give those who are interested in accuracy an extra edge with the .30gr product.

CS if you get a chance, have a look at full-auto burst on target at distance and measure groupings - I think you'll get some *very* interesting results there as well. I've observed in my less than scientific testing that I get much more consistent on-target man-sized groupings with the .28 and .30 product in particular. In one case I used Molson's brand new stock TM M16 with .28's (pre-30 product) and compared them with some .25 AE product and the on-target distance grouping I got made Gump and I grin like we'd just discovered fire or something, heheeh. I'd love to use a .30 setup in a CQB environment with stock AEG and AEP/GBBs. I suspect the ouch factor will be good, but also the accuracy at CQB ranges will be improved as well.

I'm going to beg off a Scout meeting some thursday in Febrary and come down to Splatters to give it a shot, I just need to borrow a stock gun to try it.

EDIT:

Just to give you some idea of my personal use on this product (.30gr)

I'm going to be fielding my M16A4 long rifle this summer, which features a 6.01mm tight bore, boreup cylinder, systema super torque ups, silent piston kit, polycarb piston, reinforce gearbox with the post hack and a EG1000. I am going to move to a MOSFET trigger system and push the package with a 2300mah NiMH 8.4v bat (yes thats right , 8.4v - the MOSFET will give me the efficency I need to make the 8.4v give me 9.6 performance). I am setting this package up with front and rear flipup iron sights and by default a 3x magnification Elcan clone with a quick release and a Harris bipod with quick detach on the rail. I'll be putting two kinds of mags into this - VN lowcaps with .30 and full sized low caps at 33 and 70 rounds respectively.

From a mission point of view, I can take up the sniper role, go with the VN lows and play a sniping role on semi-auto. Then, if needed I can dump the Elcan and the bipod, flip the iron sights up and go to the 70 rounder and play the infantry role - with .30gr as well. So, this gives me the best of both worlds with one round. I have an accurate sniping solution as well as a n infantry solution all in one package - no secondary PDW required and I can go lone wolf without worrying about taking a sniping rifle into a messy high volume ground attack or defence. So I did these rounds with a little bit of self interest at heart.
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Last edited by Scarecrow; January 10th, 2008 at 23:24..
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Old January 10th, 2008, 23:27   #54
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I've heard only good things about Bastard BBs. but then again, i personally have no problems with KSC Perfects. I guess its just subjective personal preference.
in the end, it all comes down to the same thing. Support our local suppliers please
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Old January 10th, 2008, 23:55   #55
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I've heard only good things about Bastard BBs. but then again, i personally have no problems with KSC Perfects. I guess its just subjective personal preference.
in the end, it all comes down to the same thing. Support our local suppliers please
Absolutely. I think with you being on the west coast and me being central and east, once you do the math with the shipping costs, unless you do volume or need specialty items (or have brand specific requirements for performance) going local is the most cost effective way to go. I've always been impressed with your brand line up BBs, and I think our business ethics are also the same - good prices, back your product up 100% and ensure everyone is happy. You do that and the community supports your efforts.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 00:41   #56
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Thanks Scarecrow, I'll give the full auto thing a shot. Both my MP5s are upgraded (stock TM barrels) and shoot very tight groups at my measured 30ft basement range. Generally I can squeeze a low cap into a 2" group at that distance, mostly doesn't matter what weight I use. And what you have found with using 0.28g and 0.30g is reinforcing what I've been telling people all along, heavier BB (up to 0.30g) are far more accurate and consistant than lighter BBs, no matter the range. They are much more stable, period. Even for effective range they rock (although lots of people have tried to use math to say that lighter goes farther........... without actually SEEING that they are wrong............... as well as those that try to use math to say that heavier at slower fps hits about the same as lighter at a higher fps........... have never experienced getting hit by anything than light BBs at games, if those that use the math to overcome lack of gaming experience). Heck, just this year there were some complaints from newer players about some of us using "hot" guns at the Foxden, because when they got shot it hurt more than they were used to at Toronto games. Automatically they assumed over 400fps guns. What I pointed out was the fact that a LOT of experienced players that had sub-400fps AEGs had switched over to your 0.28g BBs this year and love them, hence getting hit harder with a sub-limit gun. Was something a lot of people never even thought about. Leave it to someone with a sniper mentality, studied and experienced, to point out the not-so-obvious.

One thing I'd like to do for you Scarecrow, is run all the little Bastards I have through my M24 in one sitting, even if it's 10 shots each. Thanks to Testie (and the wife, she bought me a bag of 0.25g and 0.28g BBs for Xmas as well as one of your mini batteries for my secondary MP5), I now have a bag of every BB you carry, 0.20g, 0.25g, 0.28g, and 0.30g. Since all are made the same way and to the same quality, I think it'd be good info to have, and would prove/disprove my rule of thumb about 10fps drop per 0.02g increase in BB weight. Overall though, it'd be good to just have some results from ALL your BBs through a relatively consistant gun platform.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 19:51   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
Absolutely. I think with you being on the west coast and me being central and east, once you do the math with the shipping costs, unless you do volume or need specialty items (or have brand specific requirements for performance) going local is the most cost effective way to go. I've always been impressed with your brand line up BBs, and I think our business ethics are also the same - good prices, back your product up 100% and ensure everyone is happy. You do that and the community supports your efforts.
you betcha!
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Old January 11th, 2008, 21:06   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker View Post
I now have a bag of every BB you carry, 0.20g, 0.25g, 0.28g, and 0.30g. Since all are made the same way and to the same quality, I think it'd be good info to have, and would prove/disprove my rule of thumb about 10fps drop per 0.02g increase in BB weight. Overall though, it'd be good to just have some results from ALL your BBs through a relatively consistant gun platform.
If you do that let me know what you need and I will supply it for the research. No point in using your personal supply, and I appreciate the comparisons coming from an independent source. Prior to this main order I had slipped several vet teams some product to test before I committed to a production order and I got the goahead from them on it - which is why you've seen .28 and .30 - But I am still pretty cautious and know that sometimes what may look good on paper may fail miserably in the field - crossed fingers so far the engineering has been excellent and the production runs pretty much bang on the the test runs. I've got most of the major GTA based teams either using my specialty product or the .20/.25gr combo for indoors this winter, so I've gotten a lot of good feedback from them, which is really helpful but most of it is anecdotal, sort "I saw this" or "this happened" but to see it confirmed in side by side comparisons is really important to end users out there, and just reaffirms the investments I made earlier last year are paying off in a better product that will be hard to catch up to.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 21:33   #59
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Ok, will do. I'll run a full set of 10 shots through the chrony with my M24 (might do it with one of my MP5s as well for an AEG perspective) and post the results. And I have access to a 90ft indoor area that I've in the past used to set up my sniper rifles for zero and hop up adjust that I can get some results on a different type of paper. Will only compare your 0.30g with the SIIS ones I have (be nice to have some KSC Perfects as well as TM Superior, but those are beyond your sending to me.............unless yo ubuy some of each and split up among your band of 'researchers', say 100 each or so, for chrony and field use.

From what I've seen, your 0.30g are top notch, and the other night after chronying, I fired off a 5 shot group less than 1.5" at 30ft, which isn't bad, but is about what most BBs do in that rifle in the basement. I can get some results for that as well, test firing, as strict as I can for consistancy between types, etc. Testing outdoors is pretty well useless though for posting results purely because of the extreme variability of nature (why do you think all those "Global Warming" computer models are so inaccurate? Because they couldn't model the variability of water vapour, which is about 95% of the greenhouse gases affecting the way the climate behaves.) I prefer static and consistant testing, cleaning the barrel the same way between shot sets, do all the same time, same light (chrony), same distance, etc.
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Old January 15th, 2008, 16:31   #60
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Just throwing this out there for Scarecrow's testing of .30. I will report on them using my SR at a 455mm tightbore and a 590mm tightbore and let you know how I find them.

Great information in this page... I almost missed it, but good ol Stalker linked me to it and im caught up! Thanks pal.
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