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Why not more Gas guns

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Old August 31st, 2007, 00:30   #1
jayrod
 
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Talking Why not more Gas guns

It seems that the gas guns would be more fun to shoot because of the blow back action. why don't you see more of them? Wouldn't a G36c Gas blow back be great or even a UMP?
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Old August 31st, 2007, 00:39   #2
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It'd FREEEEEEEEZE the gun due to the sheer amount of shots.

Although they exist, they aren't as popular due to technical problems.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 00:42   #3
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Ever shot a Gamo V3 (Co2 powered) 2-3 mags really quickly? The gun has ice particles on it
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Yes it is hard to find an Instructor that teaches how to Finger, Suck, Squeeze and Blow all at the same time.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 00:58   #4
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The KWC Mini Uzi (CO2 powered) is loads of fun to shoot.... too hot to game with, unfortunately.

That being said, there's an increasing amount of GBB rifles that are starting to appear. (dig around, they're recent posts)
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Old August 31st, 2007, 01:09   #5
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Yeah, If I were to purchase a Gas Blow Back rifle, I'd get the STG 44 that I saw a while back... I'm thinking that'd be a pretty awesome GBB.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 01:31   #6
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Gas blowback rifles are a niche market because you can not make a reliable or practical GBB rifle without external gas. The upcoming Tanio Koba M4 and AKS74U will shake a bit during firing but you can not stuff enough propane into a mag to throw back a bolt of any significant weight. You will also get major cooldown problems which means unreliable consistency.

CO2 has enough pressure to throw a bolt back of significant weight, but powerlets are expensive and the CO2 needs to be regulated down from 800 psi. You cannot accomplish that in a small magazine without suffering from the same effects as propane.

I have a gas blowback M16 carbine that uses external gas like a paintball gun. Other models have been created as custom projects, a few are production models, and they are VERY expensive. Most people take one look and immediately dismiss them because of the external tank and hose. What they don't consider is the recoil is nearly on par with a 5.56mm without the muzzle rise, and the noise is FAR more gratifying than anything a whiny gearbox could ever hope to achieve. I didn't like the tank and hose either until I saw these videos, at which point I said "I don't care what I have to lug around; with that recoil and noise I'll live with it!" And I never, EVER looked back.

GBB M4 (customized; mine is similar):
YouTube - Escort M4a1

GBB MP5 (production unit, I have one also):
YouTube - Escort MP5a5

Custom GBB FAL:
YouTube - Escort FAL

GBB M60 (production unit):
YouTube - Escort M60

GBB MG42 (Shoei conversion):
YouTube - Escort MG42

GBB MP44 (Shoei conversion):
YouTube - Escort MP44

Never, EVER will you get that kind of performance from internal gas. If you could, it'd have been done already. Sad reality is you either live with the tank and hose or stick to AEGs, and to be honest the tank and hose are NOTHING to deal with at all. They fit nicely into a pocket or camelback and the tradeoff when you squeeze the trigger is definitely worth it.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 02:44   #7
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I always hoped (maybe over-simplistically) they'd make something with a mag that would hold the 12g CO2 powerlet and a regulator (and maybe pressure-regulated reservoir) would reside on the gun.

I swapped out the piston head on my mini uzi (the piston head mod) and performance increased dramatically: I can fire off about a mag and a half (~50 BBs) in quick consecutive bursts with pretty much no ill effect (asides from a bruised ego from the abominable grouping resulting from the recoil heh), so I figure if it was regulated down to game-safe velocities it would have plenty of power for a "standard" ~68 BB locap under most playing conditions. Either that or two "realcap" loads.

Anyway, IMO, that combination would have incredible appeal to milsimmers. Powerlets aren't that expensive when you buy them in bulk (about 75¢ a piece), and milsimmers don't generally spray and pray all day, so it would be very acceptable.

What, a guy can always dream, right?
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Old August 31st, 2007, 04:12   #8
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I used to have that Mini UZI also and it was kinda nice, though completely un-upgradeable and impractical for gaming because of the velocity. The nicest thing about classics (and I use the term loosely when referring to modern Escorts) is if you're shooting too hot or too slow, you make an adjustment on your regulator and you're good to go. With an AEG you need to open the gearbox and change a spring which cannot be fine tuned. With a fixed-output gun like the KWC Mini UZI - or ANY gas-in-the-mag gun for that matter - you have no options beyond permanent valve modification or other expensive upgrades to increase power that also cannot be tuned.

For example, I'll run my SP M16 around 150-160 psi which puts it around 380-390 fps with a 0.20g; perfect for outdoors. When I go to Xtreme Tactics their limit is 350 fps, so I drop it down to 120 psi and I'm down to 330-340 fps. Takes all of five seconds on the Palmer's stabilizer with an allen key.

The biggest problem with Escort guns is their extremely limited production, and the fact that the main English-speaking contact there is an unreliable flake who takes six months to ship you parts. Those of you who've chatted with me know of whom I speak. Thankfully a chap in Hong Kong has stepped in to fill the void and is making all manner of parts for these guns, and they are incredible! I've got a stainless steel 1-piece valve in my SP along with a stainless buffer screw; steel bolt is next!

By the way, if you plan on getting into Escorts/classics you should have fairly deep pockets. The stainless valve alone cost me $140 USD.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 06:02   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon View Post
I used to have that Mini UZI also and it was kinda nice, though completely un-upgradeable and impractical for gaming because of the velocity. The nicest thing about classics (and I use the term loosely when referring to modern Escorts) is if you're shooting too hot or too slow, you make an adjustment on your regulator and you're good to go. With an AEG you need to open the gearbox and change a spring which cannot be fine tuned. With a fixed-output gun like the KWC Mini UZI - or ANY gas-in-the-mag gun for that matter - you have no options beyond permanent valve modification or other expensive upgrades to increase power that also cannot be tuned.

For example, I'll run my SP M16 around 150-160 psi which puts it around 380-390 fps with a 0.20g; perfect for outdoors. When I go to Xtreme Tactics their limit is 350 fps, so I drop it down to 120 psi and I'm down to 330-340 fps. Takes all of five seconds on the Palmer's stabilizer with an allen key.

The biggest problem with Escort guns is their extremely limited production, and the fact that the main English-speaking contact there is an unreliable flake who takes six months to ship you parts. Those of you who've chatted with me know of whom I speak. Thankfully a chap in Hong Kong has stepped in to fill the void and is making all manner of parts for these guns, and they are incredible! I've got a stainless steel 1-piece valve in my SP along with a stainless buffer screw; steel bolt is next!

By the way, if you plan on getting into Escorts/classics you should have fairly deep pockets. The stainless valve alone cost me $140 USD.
Got a website or retailer please?
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Yes it is hard to find an Instructor that teaches how to Finger, Suck, Squeeze and Blow all at the same time.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 09:24   #10
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Nope.

http://www.classicairsoft.net is your best bet actually. Like I said, niche market.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 13:35   #11
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Gryph,

put up a review on the parts. I can't afford any of them but would love to hear how they turned out. Mine's still stock with the exception of the Agit-Prop mods.

No kidding about the flakiness, he's still got the stock JAC SD5 (w/missing front handguard, front sight) that I paid for months ago... still waiting...
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Old August 31st, 2007, 14:00   #12
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Kwokwai your situation is a bit different though. You need someone to bring in that gun. Paul is a retard though dont get me wrong. For example Paul wont tell his own brother how to make an scs for a kg9. He wants t sell the idea to his brother :S.
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