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Rules for Milsim Support Gunners?

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Old February 11th, 2007, 13:07   #16
Bravo One-Six
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I think you have to keep in mind when I say SAW, I mean an M60 or M249. Under no circumstances is an MP5 a support weapon. A full length G36 might count, but that's stretching it at times. High caps on an assault rifle do not a SAW make.

I think your problem is simply rectified by playing with real capacity ammo rules. That should pretty much get rid of the box mag on the MP5.

What it sounds like to me is you're beginning to experience the division of milsim and skirmish gaming now that your local community is big enough. Some of you are going to want to play with a high degree of realism. The others are simply going to want to shoot things. There is no real solution for this problem other than specific games designed for the specific interest. Try holding a 'realcap' game and see what kind of attendance you get. You might find it much less than your average game, but you'll certainly get the kinds of people you want, and won't suffer from MP5 Boxmag-itis.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 13:40   #17
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One of the best rule for support weapons I'v used in my games is "no burst longer than 2-3 secs".

Both fore realism and safety reasons.

I'm not into penalising people with weight or firing position rules. Since the gun itself is hard to manuver and use.

We used the "1 box mag" rule + loose ammo allowed for reloads. Most reloads of mags where only allowed in ammo dumps and bases, not on the field.

The exception was only for support gunner, wich could reload the boxmags with loose ammo, to simulate changing boxmags.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 13:56   #18
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well i have the same problem kg, and i did much like meat did. we have one m60 and we have one ak turned rpk. it was origionally an ak, but he has taken the time to make it look like an rpk without actually buying the kit. i dont know how i feel about it, but as long as he only burst fires, ill let it slide. the m60 i havent decided what im going to do about it. on one hand, he spent the money he should reap the rewards, on the other hand, other members dont want a bb hose out there, so again, if complies with the burst fire (no linger than 3-5 seconds) i wont worry about it. in the event that i do have complications i will limit their ammo capacity as we have a locap rule for all riflemen/snipers.

we also are a recreational club with alot of members who just want to shoot people and dont want alot of restricions on how they can play. so i have to keep that in mind, however if i let everyone do what they want, im going to have the same problem as no one will have any fun when everyone else is being cheap with hicaps and hose cannons. but i find as a GO, there are alot of grey areas that people exploit, so you often have to make a decision one way or another.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 14:07   #19
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Ill just pull a section of a previous post of mine. Its focused on milsim, but it applies to this discussion of ammo rules. Dont worry guys, I know some of you shit bricks when I said this last time, but Im not bashing milsim, just pointing out a common view of ammo rules. Keeping in mind, to those who are likely to start bitching about what Im saying, just think the below is talking about 249/m60 gunners only and not all players, you so can all relax now...Im typing this as the wife is bugging me to clean up the 2 boxes of lowcaps thats all over the floor.

Quote:
If milsim is only ammo limits then who cares. Honestly, I never gave a crap if the guy who beat me had more ammo then I do(ha! like thats ever gonna happen...wait, no more Cmag). Lets say tommorow the world breaks out fighting....some will run around with 300 rounds, while others, like myself, will carry 15 Cmags on my back and have a donkey pulling a wagon loaded with M249s and buckets of ammo...

is milsim:
1 bullet=1 bb
or
1 bullet = how many bbs it takes to do to an enemy behind a bush what a single bullet can do
?

far as im concrened, if milsim means making things more real-world; ammo limits hinder that.
but airsoft can only be so milsim...i mean, our guns have disgusting range, and no accuracy...I played milsim games and seen the enemy walking in a field and neither of us can engage because we are like 300 feet away...

IMHO, milsim is about the game being unpredicatble...Not knowing the FPS, team sizes, etc. Id love a game where I didnt know exactly how much ammo the enemy has. The more dynamic and mixed the game is, the more milsim it is to me.
The real world is a dynamic place.

Some would say
Quote:
No in that case Milsim would be:

1 bullet = 1 bb (and being very limited)

AND

DON"T SHOOT AT WHAT YOU CANNOT HIT... and patiently wait for the right opportunity.
However, I would argue that in real life, if a SAW gunner saw a taliban fighter hide behind a bush or shrub 50 feet away...would still prolly fire off into the bush or shrub. Im not talking about a solid hedge, Im talking about where its a small bush and the enemy is still clearly and obviously there.
We have all seen it. Some guy runs and finds cover behind a shitty bunch of shrubs...clearly visible, you send a few BBs his way...only to have them stopped by twigs or leaves. When in real life, a single shot would tear though the tiny bush and leave your opposition as dead as Anna Nicole smith.
If a SAW gunner cant hit a guy at 20 years behind a bush, then I totally see reason enough to allow for a saw gunner to carry more ammo in the mag to represent the firepower that a SAW gunner actually wields.

As Gyphon said, such a small amount of ammo is the saw can impair its function.

Its true that no one(well, almost no one) is going to like a SAW gunner belting out 2,000 long streams of ammo, but Im liking FOX_11s burst suggestion. Its nothing that can be officially regulated, but not much in airsoft can. Let the saw gunner carry as much as they want. Shoot in bursts and they can reload or swamp out a new box when they feel it suites. It should depend on the feel of the game.
Simply having a second person to carry the extra ammo or box, and requiring 2 people to reload is a penalty enough. Finding a medic in a game is hard as hell, as is your reload guy. Forcing two players to stick tougher can help reduce the "super hose" factor.
When you get written in stone rules, you really put yourself in a small box.

Last edited by Droc; February 11th, 2007 at 14:09..
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Old February 11th, 2007, 14:17   #20
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This discussion reminds me of why I wish my gun discharged 0.30g at at 330fps.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 14:19   #21
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My problem doesn't really come with ammo limits to the gun. 500-1000 rounds is ok with me. My problem stems from guns that aren't meant to have a box mag on them having them. If someone spends the time to convert a gun into a real world support gun then im all for it. Its when people slap a boxmag, cmag etc onto a gun and call it a support weapon. So in order to allow the abominations we were trying to come up with rules to level the field. With a lrb in my m60 i can reach out to around 250feet no problem. Which gives my m60 an advantage as a machine gun. My gun doesn't have ridiculous rof but it could with an easy switch of a spring and o-ring. Were thinking at just banning cmags etc and say if you want a support weapon drop the bills to get one. Then we don't really have to restrict them at all.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 14:28   #22
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In my games, Support weapons have to physicly look like one. No G36 with hicaps.

The only eception whas for those using drum mags. (Mud have an AK with a camel gonad on it (drum mag) and it's fine with me since he is limited by the reloading rules anyway. Not to mention that Mud is one hell of a nice guy haha). That drumag don't make them support weapons, since they can't reload them on the field except at ammo dump and bases.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 14:55   #23
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this was posted on ASC a little while ago by Hillslam when he was @ Operation Irene in the States, he uses a M249. In the video he reloads his boxmag and takes him quite awhile. just thought it could help.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 14:57   #24
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He is also using it on a gun that it was designed for.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 15:03   #25
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Originally Posted by Amazing KG3 View Post
Were trying to put rules in place about support gunners Involving compensation for recoil, ammo count, bulk, maneuverability, etc etc. Do any milsim players have any pointer, rules or ideas to help out? Obviously a real steel M249 is more than difficult to fire on full auto, so were thinking about rules like having to be prone, oe supporting on a bipod, however that can be a pain in the ass for 3 round bursts and what have you. Essentialy we dont want some one firing off 1000 rds, without having to change mags and keep a steady clean trajectory while running full tilt at us. (just like hicap games)

Also if you have fired an M249, or any LMG, please post your experience, it does help.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 15:09   #26
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however, you don't want to force a guy to get down in the mud every time he goes to fire his M249.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 15:22   #27
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I think the problem of this thread stems from the title and confusing wording. the whole problem is amazing wants to add a box mag to his gun to call it a support gun. We are on the move to making our fields locap only. As a compromise i decided to come up with a rule so that guns with a box mag could be considered a support gun. However the field official knight and I are talking and instead of placing hard to enforce rules on machine guns. We are likely going to ban box mags and say if you want a support gun fork out the cash.


EDIT> I say this should be clarified because I know asc's view on c mags etc
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Old February 11th, 2007, 15:49   #28
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as a previous Cmag lover, they have their issues. They are loud and make the gun very awkward.

If someone is set on making a rifle into a support gun, then sure, a Cmag, bipod, burst firing and a simulated reload(could be a 90 second timeout per x number of rounds fired off). If people are really gonna piss and moan about it, then carry an over the shoulder bag with a few pounds...it will add some weight and will swing around making things more difficult.
If people are gonna give the guy a hard time because hes doing his best to make everyone happy while still being a support gunner, then they should grow a pair and stop bitching.

As much as in a perfect world, not even can drop $1,500 or more on an actual M249 or M60...Not to say that everyone should go out and buy a Cmag, but people gotta remember that its a game and there should be some give both ways.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 16:09   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droc View Post
If people are gonna give the guy a hard time because hes doing his best to make everyone happy while still being a support gunner, then they should grow a pair and stop bitching.
Quoted for future reference.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 17:37   #30
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IMO... you should worry less about restricting saws, and more about restricting everyone else. Any gun with a hicap is basically a SAW, which makes owning a SAW pointless. instead of telling a saw what it can and cant do, restrict everyone else. NO hicaps, only low and real caps. that way, a SAW standard load out gives it the natural advantage it should have.

Yah no one likes a SAW, youre not supposed to! theyre supposed to be able to lay down tonnes of fire, its their role on the field. Most SAW gunners dont play the role right anyways, in that the SAW isnt supposed to get kills. its the gunners job to shoot at bushes, sandbags and bunkers, keeping the heads behind those objects down. while your assault team moves in to take the glory.

As for the cost issue.. those who save the pennies for a 249 are the ones who get pissed off at those who abuse CMags and such. " I just dropped 2 grand on a gun, this punk spend 700$... and he's subject to the same rulings as me? " Doesnt seem fair, nor does it encourage people to play milsim in the least.

one rule I heard though, I really liked. Restricting 1 MG to a squad of 7 or 10. THATS how you balance it the most, IMO. no more armies of machine guns.

Last edited by Zekk05; February 11th, 2007 at 23:09..
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