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Old September 27th, 2006, 10:34   #1
Scarecrow
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Padded Room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droc
As much as I agree with going easy on noobs, once the sass comes out, I say give them the boot... IMHO, alot of the time, a grilling is a good way to toss them on the right track.
Your welcome to be in here everyday pumping out huge paragraphs to spoon feed the minors, but your going to be at it all day, everyday. So far you tossed out over 1,000 words spoon feeding this kid...You going to do that with everyone?
Droc, its easy. If a noob post like that annoys you - simply don't respond to it. It takes as much effort to come up with creative flaming as it does to help someone.

I am saying if you're choosing to respond to it, do so productively. It can be simple as saying "Please read these FAQs first and then ask any questions not covered in them." and post the links. It can be a canned response that you just cut and paste, which takes no time at all, its a computer after all. In fact I am making one up right now that I intend to use from now on.

Is it frustrating? Yes, it is, I agree. Its a huge pain in the ass. But you are dealing with kids, some of them very young even for their age. I come from a Scouting background and deal with Beaver, Cub and Scout aged children and teens, and this is par for the course. Being a 39 year old airsofter and a father of three and a volunteer in several other community organizations, I recognize the need for mentorship here. Perhaps you don't want to do that, and thats fine, but it needs to be done to some degree.

I'll say it again to emphasize, because I think this point is important - this sport/community is NOT growing and in many places it is shrinking because we are essentially eating our children. And when we don't go out of our way to direct these inquiries properly, we force them to seek out cliques within the community that sell to minors and hold backyard/construction site skirmish events that ultimately can get them hurt, and when the police get involved, reflect badly on airsoft. So, this effort up front pays dividends down the road.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 21:16   #2
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I always point them to the FAQ and Information section, at least once. I tried spoonfeeding, it did not work. I tried being nice, it did not work. Now I tell them exactly what to read.

I'd love to hear of a solution where nobody would have to point out the obvious. Nobody's done it yet.

Blaming me is easy because I speak my mind.

So again, if you guys have a foolproof method to stop the daily bullshit we read here, I wont be alone waiting to hear all about it.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 21:38   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greylocks
Blaming me is easy because I speak my mind.
Yes, and you do it grudgingly and in an unwelcoming fashion. Your efforts to educate when you're polite and sincere are appreciated. When you're being passive agressive, it is not and its obvious. Sorry, but I speak my mind too.

I've been standing on the sidelines for a couple years observing all this and thinking about it too. Its clear to me that regular users are antagonized by new posters asking the same questions repeatedly. Its clear the FAQs are not always being read, and I don't think its always because people don't want to read them. There is a LOT of information there, and some of it is hard to dig through to find answers to the one or two immediate questions one has when they first hit this site. I think a careful reorganization of that information may help. The information is good, its just sometimes hard to wade through.

A section to parents is also missing. I'm willing to author that. I have background in that being an Airsofter, a Scouter and a parent, and I've written similar documents before. I have a good idea of what parents want to know and I've already acted as a parent interface to new underaged airsofters and mentored them as well - successfully too.

I've also been speaking to Spleen and I've made some suggestions that the mods and admins of ASC may accept, reject or ignore altogether. I'm not party to the ASC inner circle so I can't comment further in that regard. But I do think there is a solution to the problem, with a little bit of PHP and a graduated system of access, you can eliminate a lot of the more annoying posts that antagonize regular users. If someone still posts questions like that, it should get instashuttled to a separate forum and people tasked to deal with those people and questions who are willing to be patient can deal with it. If its someone being an asshat, there is always the mod hammer, which really should be the tool of last resort.

To do that we would need a fairly decent pool of willing volunteers who would exhibit patience. It has to be a large pool because there are a huge number of new users signing up here daily and since its a volunteer role, you have to spread the load reasonably.

So, between graduated access, clarification and reorganization of the FAQ system, and a new user mentor process, I think you can fix most of what is currently broken in the present solution. There also has to be a willingness to try it - I know a lot of the current mods are frustrated by the history of this problem, but I think a fresh effort might be worth the try.

Alternatively we can go on flaming new users and watching our numbers dwindle as we become an insular, jaded, clique of in-joke cool kids dissing all those outside our social group...

...no, that doesn't appeal to me either.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 21:46   #4
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Hey, believe it or not, if anyone finds a solution I'll be a happy man. No joke, no sarcasm, I mean it.

Heck, just look at the idiot who decided to post porn for the last 20-plus minutes in the general section. If that is not ammo to make this site 18+ and age-verified only, I dont know what is.

If newbies read the FAQ, and I mean at least the Newbie Guide, there would be less problems.
If parents did the same, the problems would be far lower. But they dont, not unless they get semi-forced to do it.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 21:51   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greylocks
Hey, believe it or not, if anyone finds a solution I'll be a happy man. No joke, no sarcasm, I mean it.
I've never doubted that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greylocks
Heck, just look at the idiot who decided to post porn for the last 20-plus minutes in the general section. If that is not ammo to make this site 18+ and age-verified only, I dont know what is.
Which is why we should have a mud room with a closed door separating new guests from the living quarters. You're not allowed in (or not allowed to post) until you've met certain requirements and acknowledged those requirements. By all means, keep the board open for all to read and so that Google can still grab ASC content.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greylocks
If newbies read the FAQ, and I mean at least the Newbie Guide, there would be less problems.
If parents did the same, the problems would be far lower. But they dont, not unless they get semi-forced to do it.
I agree and I think that is enforceable from a technical point of view. And if someone acknowledges that they've read it and still post stupid questions, you move the stupid questions back to the mud room, and let those who are willing to be patient sort it out while the party still continues in the living room.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 21:58   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
I agree and I think that is enforceable from a technical point of view. And if someone acknowledges that they've read it and still post stupid questions, you move the stupid questions back to the mud room, and let those who are willing to be patient sort it out while the party still continues in the living room.
Hate it what I can't go back and edit.

You also demote the user back to a guest and revoke their posting access outside the mudroom until its clear they're sorted out. If they continue to be problematic just because they're socially stunted, they you give them the boot off the board.

This has the effect of making post a privledge, rather than an automatic right. I think that would change some attitudes around here.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 22:10   #7
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That sounds perfect. But I dont know PHP. How easy is it to implement?
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Old September 27th, 2006, 22:30   #8
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I think some (if not all) of the functionality may be native to vBulletin and some of it needs to be written. If Hojo doesn't have time, there are great programmers at getafreelancer.com who work for peanuts who I am sure could bridge the gap. I'm sure a small collection of the donations could fund that if ASC Armoury isn't up to the task....
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Old September 27th, 2006, 22:45   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greylocks
Hey, believe it or not, if anyone finds a solution I'll be a happy man. No joke, no sarcasm, I mean it.

Heck, just look at the idiot who decided to post porn for the last 20-plus minutes in the general section. If that is not ammo to make this site 18+ and age-verified only, I dont know what is.

If newbies read the FAQ, and I mean at least the Newbie Guide, there would be less problems.
If parents did the same, the problems would be far lower. But they dont, not unless they get semi-forced to do it.
Greylocks, my big problem with you is that you make statements that just aren't true. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You need to read the FAQ you are so quick to point out to new users.

I don't know whether you post the incorrect info out of ignorance, or whether you know it is wrong and post it as fact in order to force your opinions on others. Either way, you need to at least start posting accurately.

Can you not see the hypocrisy in railing on about how others haven't read the FAQ while in the same threads making statements that are directly contradicted by those FAQs?
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Quote:
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Oh wow, im speechless. Crowbars and shovels... back to lurking then.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 07:51   #10
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I post about laws based on what the police will toss at us; in their eyes they are Replicas because those laws bite the most and area easy to enforce. The FAQ are NOT clear about what gets enforced. You dont risk getting shot or arrested as badly with airguns as you would with toys that are 1:1 scale to the real thing.

I err on the side of caution. Airsoft laws are unclear, replica laws are Very Clear. I stand by them.

99% of newbies ask if they can play at 14; I or others direct them at the FAQ. The FAQ does say many good things, specially the Newbie guide, but on the law side ALL of us are in a grey area. Pick something enforceable. I do.

They dont read the FAQ, they even refuse the read it after being pointed to it (we saw that this week), and then they refuse to accept the rules they just read. Yes, those idiots WILL run the streets, most likely. But they cant say they came here and were not told the right information. They just chose to be dumb as bricks.

No, there is no way to stop them from being stupid.

Find a real workable solution and I'll be first in line to help.

(Edited after an intelligent private discussion with Spleen).
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Old September 28th, 2006, 09:03   #11
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EDITTED: I've removed this post as my dispute with Greylocks is not a useful contribution to this thread now that we've moved it back to the General section and turned it purely into a dicsussion of the mudroom idea. If anyone has a serious problem with this, or sees it as "revisionist" I will be happy to forward them the complete text. I'm not trying to "unsay" it, I have just decided it doesn't belong here and instead sent it to Greylocks by PM.
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Quote:
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Oh wow, im speechless. Crowbars and shovels... back to lurking then.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 09:42   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spleen
Mud-room is a nice idea, I agree. Will it happen? I don't know, I don't run the show here.
VERY easy to implement, no coding required. New group called "Probationary" or whatever, access controls to read only on MOST boards, DENY in some, and post only in a specific board - Using basicaly the same code as the "asc contributors" title bars, you can configure probationary users with an image designating them as such, so that it's clear in boards that are availalbe to them WHO is probationary and who is not.

Takes 20 minutes to do.

You can also set it to "promote" a user after X days or X posts, thus moving them into a non-probationary group.
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what if it model after his?
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Old September 28th, 2006, 13:51   #13
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Split useful part of the thread back into General. Ironically I think being in the trash kept alot of random posters out.


The technical aspect of implementing it is not the problem, it's easy. My issue with a probationary group is that we have many new users who are already established airsofters, especially in other countries, who sign up to participate in a thread right away - as many of us do on other boards, you browse and if you find a discussion you want to be a part of, you signup and post.

I always have a keen dislike for penalizing the good users for the actions of a few problem ones - it's why we have a gun registry. It's easy to realize the benefits of a system like that, but you won't know who you're shutting out. Given that we are now one of the largest english airsoft websites in the world, instituting a policy locking people out could be quite frustrating to the community.

My opinion.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 14:56   #14
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I agree with the probationary part for new players. But Remenber The final decision lies on HonestJohn who owns the site.
HoJo you can manipulate the access for people who have proven themselfs to bypass the probationary wait.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 15:13   #15
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What about a system where people can post anything they like, but if that post shows that the user is unfamilliar with airsoft and the rules, etc. Then moderators put that post in the Mudroom, where the user must read the FAQ, even scroll through it, almost like those Microsoft agreements before posting again. Also there could be people designated to answer the questions in the mudroom that have shown they are able to deal with new comers. This way people who join and know what they are talking about can just post away, but those who haven't read the rules and just start asking stupid questions are sent to the mudroom.
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