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Old September 20th, 2006, 21:27   #16
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Airsoft should be banned
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Old September 20th, 2006, 22:40   #17
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Thats great news, well worst case scenario, lets all just jump on a plane and live in the UK now!!! Better fields anyways

not to mention that no matter where you live you'll always have like 5 fields 10 mins away from your home
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Old September 20th, 2006, 22:49   #18
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Airsoft should be banned
Why do you say that????
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Old September 20th, 2006, 22:54   #19
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Hopefully Canada can be as so kind to grant something like that.
It's a bummer as to the recent events as I was awaiting an AEG from a supplier but his broker fell through.
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What can you do?
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Old September 21st, 2006, 14:32   #20
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I know that it would be alittle more risky, but can we not just chrono our guns with .12 bb and make them shoot over 500fps, or can we even bump our guns up to 500fps and increase the average min engagement distance, it seems that we may end up losing cqb fields, but at least we wont lose airsoft as a whole.
Besides, as it stands airsoft hurts way less than paintball, im not saying it should hurt the same, but we can at least accept alittle more pain to keep the sport alive.
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Old September 21st, 2006, 18:14   #21
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thephenom "Good job on the Brits' part. Now only if we can pull off the same thing in Canada, but then there hasn't been any bill propsed to ban airsoft yet."

-I doubt we could pull anything off, seeing how the moderators will delete any thread hinting of what you mention, as 'provocative' and 'redundant of past efforts'.

"Because there isn't a proposed bill on the matter yet in Canada. The British airsofters were going against a bill; not asking the gov't to define a new category for airsoft."

-One could 'go against' the CFA, "Firearms Act 1995, c. 39". If you think about it, that's the main problem, it introduces un-necessary regulations. Why not have it amended or struck down, and then there'd be no prohibited category for 'replicas', and thus no problem? Furthermore, you'd have all firearms owners along, not just airsofters. Other items are stupidly banned, like 'silencers' and 'normal capacity magazines', causing deafness and nuisance respectively.



neir "That should allow everyone to ease up a little about the recent events in canada."
-You're kidding, right? You trust British politicians? Ordinary ones are bad, but British ones are disgusting! To prove that BSE (incurable brain-eating disease) didn't exist (it did) they happily used children for photo-ops, eating the foods which caused BSE. (sausage and hamburger are worst, especially if they don't clean the saw blades after cutting spine and brain). The Brits are pooched, airsoft WILL be banned, no if's and's or but's. It's a country which is prohibiting the ownership of knives, and arrests grandmothers who swear at yobs trespassing on their lawns. The whole country thinks 1984 wasn't just a book but an attainable goal.


deep in the bush "I don't think "easy" was the word for it...it required a TON of lobbying...also tons and tons of MONEY."

It is NOT hard and NOT expensive to change policy. So few people care, and so many people are lazy that very few people can get great deal's done. Lobbiests don't work for millions, they work for and with thousands. On a one-sided issue like airsoft, when no major group is actively 'against' it, lobbying would be a walk in the park. Even without hiring a lobbiest (which would be efficient and affordable, divided among membership) if each member simply e-mailed or posted a form-letter, one that they only had to add their name to, then you could get results instantly. Official responses would happen within a week, when 10,000 voices are heard. There are easy ways to get petitions going, even to quickly and easily get media coverage, and influence public opinion.



But, like I said, it's not allowed on this site to discuss such things, so forget I mentioned them.
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Old September 21st, 2006, 20:47   #22
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i dont think thats entirley true, if there is no need, the system we have works, so why come up with ideas to fix it? sure there are always ways to improve something, but are they always neccissary?

now if our sport was actually, genuineley in danger, this site would become the hub of airsoft conservation like arnies did in the uk. but as it stands now sure recent events are comeing close to our comfort zone, but so far the governmet hasnt made any "hostile" threat/acitions our way. after all it is Harper, and hes not one to get hair brained ideas and jump on the band wagon, or we'd be pulling out or afganistan already, and i feel that hed be the only government to actually sit down with an appointed airsoft rep and discuss us, and actually even play. to date harper has granted more personal meetings with civilians than any other pm prior.
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Old September 21st, 2006, 20:57   #23
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Score 1 for airsoft...now airsoft has government recognition. Time to storm Ottowa (figuritively of course)?
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Old September 21st, 2006, 21:20   #24
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Originally Posted by Luckyorwhat
thephenom "Good job on the Brits' part. Now only if we can pull off the same thing in Canada, but then there hasn't been any bill propsed to ban airsoft yet."

-I doubt we could pull anything off, seeing how the moderators will delete any thread hinting of what you mention, as 'provocative' and 'redundant of past efforts'.

"Because there isn't a proposed bill on the matter yet in Canada. The British airsofters were going against a bill; not asking the gov't to define a new category for airsoft."

-One could 'go against' the CFA, "Firearms Act 1995, c. 39". If you think about it, that's the main problem, it introduces un-necessary regulations. Why not have it amended or struck down, and then there'd be no prohibited category for 'replicas', and thus no problem? Furthermore, you'd have all firearms owners along, not just airsofters. Other items are stupidly banned, like 'silencers' and 'normal capacity magazines', causing deafness and nuisance respectively.

deep in the bush "I don't think "easy" was the word for it...it required a TON of lobbying...also tons and tons of MONEY."

It is NOT hard and NOT expensive to change policy. So few people care, and so many people are lazy that very few people can get great deal's done. Lobbiests don't work for millions, they work for and with thousands. On a one-sided issue like airsoft, when no major group is actively 'against' it, lobbying would be a walk in the park. Even without hiring a lobbiest (which would be efficient and affordable, divided among membership) if each member simply e-mailed or posted a form-letter, one that they only had to add their name to, then you could get results instantly. Official responses would happen within a week, when 10,000 voices are heard. There are easy ways to get petitions going, even to quickly and easily get media coverage, and influence public opinion.
Luckyorwhat:

If you think any lobbying is easy, that just tells me you havn't done it. Care to tell us about your lobbying experinece. Since you think lobbiests are inexpensive, when is the last time you hired one and how much did he/she cost.

Your comment that "official responses would happen within a week" just tells me you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Please tell me about how one gets quick and easy positive media coverage and influence public opinion. I can't wait until the general public marches on Ottawa for Airsoft. Give me a great.

About the British "Victory"

While I salute both their efforts and success, it is a small and Pyhric victory at best. Let me explain.

The letter published here says that they will create a regulatory defence for airsoft skirmishing after the main bill is passed. What does that mean.

That means the activites involved in airsoft will still be a crime, but there will be a defined defense allowed for airsoft skirmishing. The regulation will be written by a civil servant and will likely include troubling and potentially narrow definintions. The other problem is that the defence will be regulatory not statuatory. Regulations can be added, amended or struck at the government's whim without committee, public consultation or legislative vote. This means that the government or even a department can wipe out this defense, and effectively ban airsoft at a stroke of a pen when the time is right. The promised reg. is better than the original bill without it, but this is still a major erosion of rights.

The time for the British lobby to take it to the next level is now. They should be starting a new offensive along the lines of "Dear Minister, we are very pleased about your written committment to provide an airsoft skirmish defense but in order to protect our basic liberties we need this inserted in the Bill proper."

LD
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Old September 21st, 2006, 22:31   #25
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I totally agree with lawdog, any media right now would be harmful to our cause, the media, dosen't always, look to the minority, in this area, I personaly belive, that in the most part, it would say that we are to blame for what happen in Montreal... I'm not a lawer, or a cop, or anything, that has that kind of background, I just belive, that the media, will do what will get then the most sales... or attention...

Please tell me about how one gets quick and easy positive media coverage and influence public opinion. I can't wait until the general public marches on Ottawa for Airsoft.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 02:17   #26
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Originally Posted by Lawdog
If you think any lobbying is easy, that just tells me you havn't done it. Care to tell us about your lobbying experinece. Since you think lobbiests are inexpensive, when is the last time you hired one and how much did he/she cost.

Your comment that "official responses would happen within a week" just tells me you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Please tell me about how one gets quick and easy positive media coverage and influence public opinion. I can't wait until the general public marches on Ottawa for Airsoft. Give me a great.
LD
Right. So you ask me to type this, and the next day the thread will be closed. For me I'd say that's a starting point for change, allowing pro-airsoft players to discuss improving airsoft in Canada, on a Canadian airsoft board.

Official responses happen within a week - When the UN was having a 'small arms conference', for instance, several thousand form letters were sent. People sending them did not expect them to be taken seriously, but they did provoke the UN into making press releases specifically to counter the letters they received. If you really want to do this, I'll get you copies of the letter, and show you dates they were sent, and then links to the official UN response.

Again, if you want to know 'guerrila media coverage', you cant' discuss it on this forum. For starters, though, it involves work. People write letters to the editors of whatever publications they read. Editors publish a few, and public is swayed. If you really really cared you could buy advertising in various media. For instance you can buy TV commercial slot during a morning news show for a couple hundred dollars.\

For lobbying I've been volunteering with political campaigns at the provincial and federal level for almost 8 years. Small amounts of money are noticeable. People who donate over $100 get attention. I've known two individuals personally who were involved with lobbying, one who was the lobbiest, and the other who was an entrepreneur. The lobbiest just fell into the job, on the side, and it required no deviousness or subterfuge. He was paid, he invited the MLA to dinner, when time available they met and discussed policy on used-car sales, and made a good case. It is the ability to get 1 on 1 time that you pay for, not bribe money. The other case was a co-owner of a auto salvage company who, along with other owners lobbied for regulations on mercury-switch removal to include a disposal fee into the price of each unit, like tires or batteries.


...Or you could tow the old line, 'It's hopeless, and useless.The world's so big and mean and I'm just a small person, boo hoo hoo. I'm too lazy to write a letter or sign a petition, and I can't spare $50 a year' (which, if I was running this site I'd set a status for paying members, allow them higher functions, and use the money to pay for furthering the sport, and take a percentage for the administration, but such things aren't allowed to be discussed...)
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 06:18   #27
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Originally Posted by Luckyorwhat
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Originally Posted by Lawdog
If you think any lobbying is easy, that just tells me you havn't done it. Care to tell us about your lobbying experinece. Since you think lobbiests are inexpensive, when is the last time you hired one and how much did he/she cost.

Your comment that "official responses would happen within a week" just tells me you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Please tell me about how one gets quick and easy positive media coverage and influence public opinion. I can't wait until the general public marches on Ottawa for Airsoft. Give me a great.
LD
Right. So you ask me to type this, and the next day the thread will be closed. For me I'd say that's a starting point for change, allowing pro-airsoft players to discuss improving airsoft in Canada, on a Canadian airsoft board.

Official responses happen within a week - When the UN was having a 'small arms conference', for instance, several thousand form letters were sent. People sending them did not expect them to be taken seriously, but they did provoke the UN into making press releases specifically to counter the letters they received. If you really want to do this, I'll get you copies of the letter, and show you dates they were sent, and then links to the official UN response.

Again, if you want to know 'guerrila media coverage', you cant' discuss it on this forum. For starters, though, it involves work. People write letters to the editors of whatever publications they read. Editors publish a few, and public is swayed. If you really really cared you could buy advertising in various media. For instance you can buy TV commercial slot during a morning news show for a couple hundred dollars.\

For lobbying I've been volunteering with political campaigns at the provincial and federal level for almost 8 years. Small amounts of money are noticeable. People who donate over $100 get attention. I've known two individuals personally who were involved with lobbying, one who was the lobbiest, and the other who was an entrepreneur. The lobbiest just fell into the job, on the side, and it required no deviousness or subterfuge. He was paid, he invited the MLA to dinner, when time available they met and discussed policy on used-car sales, and made a good case. It is the ability to get 1 on 1 time that you pay for, not bribe money. The other case was a co-owner of a auto salvage company who, along with other owners lobbied for regulations on mercury-switch removal to include a disposal fee into the price of each unit, like tires or batteries.


...Or you could tow the old line, 'It's hopeless, and useless.The world's so big and mean and I'm just a small person, boo hoo hoo. I'm too lazy to write a letter or sign a petition, and I can't spare $50 a year' (which, if I was running this site I'd set a status for paying members, allow them higher functions, and use the money to pay for furthering the sport, and take a percentage for the administration, but such things aren't allowed to be discussed...)

Actually I have been doing lobbying for years now, both directly and by retaining lobbyists on behalf of organizations I represent.

You obviously misread what I am saying. I do not suggest that lobbying is not appropriate for airsoft, I just think your post(s) grossly underestimate the effort required to do it effectively in Canada at any level.

The first thing you have to decide is what the goal of your lobbying will be, in a short statement that can be sold to politicians.

Try that first and then go on to the next step.

What is the real outcome you want from your lobbying?

LD
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 12:28   #28
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You are preaching to the choir, man. Every time a thread is created saying, "Let's summarize our aims." It is closed and deleted within hours, with a note saying it's 'provocative' and 'already been tried'.

That's the starting point I see for improving airsoft in Canada - allow us to talk about it here.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 16:39   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyorwhat
thephenom "Good job on the Brits' part. Now only if we can pull off the same thing in Canada, but then there hasn't been any bill propsed to ban airsoft yet."

-I doubt we could pull anything off, seeing how the moderators will delete any thread hinting of what you mention, as 'provocative' and 'redundant of past efforts'.

"Because there isn't a proposed bill on the matter yet in Canada. The British airsofters were going against a bill; not asking the gov't to define a new category for airsoft."

-One could 'go against' the CFA, "Firearms Act 1995, c. 39". If you think about it, that's the main problem, it introduces un-necessary regulations. Why not have it amended or struck down, and then there'd be no prohibited category for 'replicas', and thus no problem? Furthermore, you'd have all firearms owners along, not just airsofters. Other items are stupidly banned, like 'silencers' and 'normal capacity magazines', causing deafness and nuisance respectively.

deep in the bush "I don't think "easy" was the word for it...it required a TON of lobbying...also tons and tons of MONEY."

It is NOT hard and NOT expensive to change policy. So few people care, and so many people are lazy that very few people can get great deal's done. Lobbiests don't work for millions, they work for and with thousands. On a one-sided issue like airsoft, when no major group is actively 'against' it, lobbying would be a walk in the park. Even without hiring a lobbiest (which would be efficient and affordable, divided among membership) if each member simply e-mailed or posted a form-letter, one that they only had to add their name to, then you could get results instantly. Official responses would happen within a week, when 10,000 voices are heard. There are easy ways to get petitions going, even to quickly and easily get media coverage, and influence public opinion.
Luckyorwhat:

If you think any lobbying is easy, that just tells me you havn't done it. Care to tell us about your lobbying experinece. Since you think lobbiests are inexpensive, when is the last time you hired one and how much did he/she cost.

Your comment that "official responses would happen within a week" just tells me you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Please tell me about how one gets quick and easy positive media coverage and influence public opinion. I can't wait until the general public marches on Ottawa for Airsoft. Give me a great.

About the British "Victory"

While I salute both their efforts and success, it is a small and Pyhric victory at best. Let me explain.

The letter published here says that they will create a regulatory defence for airsoft skirmishing after the main bill is passed. What does that mean.

That means the activites involved in airsoft will still be a crime, but there will be a defined defense allowed for airsoft skirmishing. The regulation will be written by a civil servant and will likely include troubling and potentially narrow definintions. The other problem is that the defence will be regulatory not statuatory. Regulations can be added, amended or struck at the government's whim without committee, public consultation or legislative vote. This means that the government or even a department can wipe out this defense, and effectively ban airsoft at a stroke of a pen when the time is right. The promised reg. is better than the original bill without it, but this is still a major erosion of rights.

The time for the British lobby to take it to the next level is now. They should be starting a new offensive along the lines of "Dear Minister, we are very pleased about your written committment to provide an airsoft skirmish defense but in order to protect our basic liberties we need this inserted in the Bill proper."

LD
Ya...ummmm...relax....does anyone here think that lobbying is easy...I don't. And neither do I think that the media will portray airsoft in a positive spin.

The whole point of the thread is to highlight how government representives can advocate for the wants of groups and organizations and that there now (albeit in England) a document stating that airsoft is a community and not one that is irrisponsible.

So...although this is a small victory... at least someone...somewhere is moving positively. Not cultivaiting a defeatist and negative attitude that does not helkp keep others motivated to pursue the issue.

And if anyone does have experience at lobbying (which does not have to be that expensive or require a professional) then speak up and help the cause, not promote apathy and hopelessness.

Things take time to change, especially when dealing with the government and public opinion. It takes an undaunted effort to effect ones( or a groups) objective.

I applaude the efforts across the sea and am willing to help promote and lobby airsoft as a competive game (sport to some) that is carried out in a safe, responsible and healthy manner by a great bunch of individuals that are safe, responsible and active.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 06:08   #30
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I agree with lucky on the subject that threads get closed because 'its already been tried'

its an airsoft site. let people talk about airsoft, you guys do, do a GREAT job at moderating the forums, but sometimes, in certain cases you either A) act way too quickly, not even giving the thread a chance, or B) let things slide a little far.
(and i mean that from a first hand experience where i was flamed for about a week and a half because of my personal email address) but that doesnt really matter. to the mods and admins of ASC, i respect you guys a lot, and if you did start charging membership fees for the site, i would definatly contribute, and im sure a lot of others would too.

i think if we play our cards right, and get the ball rolling on some things, us CANADIAN airsofters can get atleast something small accomplished. im not saying anything is easy, or that it can be done instantly. im just doing what probably most have you have spent time doing.... thinking, on ideas that could possibly make airsoft legal. im going to bring this up in the next law discussion we have at my work (we have them often, and theyr are lawyers, and local MPs that show up) and im going to see what they have to say on things. and i know our MP would help stand for it, he's asked me to bring him to a game on more than one occasion.

but hey, who am i to make a difference by saying something..im just one person...
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