Airsoft Canada
AirsoftParts.ca

Go Back   Airsoft Canada > General > General
Home Forums Register Gallery FAQ Calendar
Retailers Community News/Info International Retailers IRC Today's Posts

Game safety: muzzle velocity vs. velocity @ 10' mercy range

:

General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 10th, 2006, 22:27   #1
MadMax
Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations
 
MadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop
Game safety: muzzle velocity vs. velocity @ 10' mercy range

I took out my Prochrony optical chrony to answer a niggling question in my head:

Is a 10' mercy range all that effective in reducing undue injury from an airsoft gun?

I chronyed an AEP and a GBB at point blank and at 10' range and got the following results with 0.2g pellets.

AEP: 215fps@point blank, 204fps@10'
Hicapa on propane: 321fps@PB, 288@10'

The reduction in pellet energy for the AEP at 10' is about 11% whereas the Hicapa toned down by 24%. In any case, it appears that an AEP doesn't hit all that hard even at PB so it doesn't really make much sense to impose a mercy range on AEPs with much more powerful ASGs on a field.

With the hicapa running down to 288fps at 10' it seems kind of unfair to even impose a mercy range on a stock AEG which typically puts out around 280fps.

I'm not done testing, but it begs the question if 10' is enough range for high powered AEGs. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but 400fps rifles probably still put out a very high fps at 10'.

It seems unfair to impose generic mercy ranges for both high and low powered airsoft guns. It seems to make more sense to allow close firing with low power and require a minimum safe range for high powered guns. If we're willing to accept a 400fps rifle to fire at 10', we should also lift the mercy rules for say sub 350fps rifles (assuming a 400fps rifle delivers 350fps at 10').
__________________
Want nearly free GBB gas?

MadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2006, 22:56   #2
Lisa
Looking for form T-whatev
 
Lisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trenton
I see the fairness issue, though having a mercy rule for high powered guns but not low powered guns seems like a nightmare to enforce unless you have a lower fps limit (like for indoor games.
__________________
Nothing to see here
May you live in interesting times.
ASCMART, your smart choice
Lisa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 02:24   #3
Sha Do
 
Sha Do's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: No where to be seen......Hillsburgh
Absolutely a valid point and possibly a concearn, but it's going to be hard to have everyone agree on one way or another. Aswell, this may lead to complications during mercies on the field as they happen.
Just imagine that you are using a 400fps upgraded AEG and you get the drop on someone. You declair mercy on them as they stick their noggin out from behind a tree, but in a split second they react by pulling the trigger of their (unbeknown to you) stock gun, and with out thinking beyond "that sob's declining my mercy", you pull the trigger.....instant incident.
Now imagine you are the poor guy with the stock gun who was startled by the guy yelling mercy causing you to accidently squease that trigger...
.
Unless it is clearly defined to everyone at the begining of a game, and originally posted as a condition set by the game host from day one (so players know what ios expected of them), there will be problems.
It may transpire quickly and easily...but then again too many people are set in their ways and there is always those hard learner cases.
.
On a side note for other readers; you may be aware that we have established minimum safe shooting distances for bolt actions (which are allowed a higher fps to offset a lack in ROF) but not a mercy rule......to simply put it an upgraded bolt action operator is not allowed to mercy anyone with their primary, and here's why;
a fully upgraded level 2, that's a 200% spring or equivilant, bolt action rifle will crank out 0.20 weight BB's at over 500 fps, hench forth you do not shoot at anyone with in 100 feet.
So, then why would you even point your upgraded bolt action at anyone with in 10 feet and risk a misfire???? (and yes, I have seen mechanical failures that have caused chambered BB's to be fired prematurally).
The idea of the sport is to have fun, not injure people, and trust me, you don't want to be on the business end of a bolt action if that happens.
.
Mr.C (madmax) is headed in the right direction with this....but I hope it dosen't get to complicated.
Good luck bro; SHA DO
Sha Do is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 02:58   #4
MadMax
Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations
 
MadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop
Well, establishing a minimum safe distance for b/a rifles is even harder to enforce. Not too many people are very good at judging actual distances. Anything that's not immediately obvious to a shooter is even less obvious to a game org who is not immediately present at a shooting in question. Establishing a numerical safe distance is merely arbitrary without measuring impact energy at measured distance. It's even impractical if particiapants cannot judge distance on sight.

I'm not looking to try to split hairs between highly upgraded ASGs and lowish power airsoft. ASGs exist in a continuous range of muzzle energies.

The purpose of my testing was to determine whether a mercy rule really has any purpose in a CQB setting. If we are willing to accept a 400fps muzzle velocity fired upon a person at 10' in outdoor play, it's hard to see the purpose of a mercy rule when pistols or low upgrade/stock guns are in play in a CQB setting since lower power ASGs impart less muzzle energy than higher power ASGs at 10'. High power ASGs are inappropriate for CQB play so it's hard to see the purpose of a mercy rule on fields with low fps limits. It would be more clear to impose a 330fps limit on indoor games with no mercy rule. Mercy can be offered, but is not a requirement.

Shooting someone with higher powered ASG (say 400fps) because the target appears to be reacting aggressively when mercy is offered is par for the course. The removal of a mercy range for low power ASGs doesn't really affect the reactions of the shooter offering mercy whether the target is reacting with a low power or high power ASG even with our current mercy rules. Even current mercy rules more or less allows the offerer to shoot a target who responds aggressively to the offer of mercy.
__________________
Want nearly free GBB gas?

MadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 03:03   #5
The Saint
 
The Saint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Quebec
There's also the issue with different BB weights retaining different amount of KE at different distance. There's a good write up on Arnie's tech section about this, though I can't link to it right now since I can't access that forum ATM. Then there's the hard question of just how much impact energy is safe?
__________________
"The Bird of Hermes is My Name, Eating My Wings to Make Me Tame."
The Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 03:24   #6
MadMax
Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations
 
MadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop
That's an important factor I haven't had the time to asses yet. Taking potshots at 10' is one thing. Firing various weight pellets at different ranges from different muzzle velocities works out to a lot of shots and a lot of time needing a decent range to test at.

for example:
-5 pellet weights: 0.2g, 0.25g, 0.28g, 0.36g, 0.43g
-4 different muzzle energies: 1j, 1.5j, 2j, 4j
-5 different ranges: 10', 25', 50', 100', 200'
-missing the chrony's target area at each range for each distance: 2, 4, 10, 20, 50 (estimated shots required to get one velocity reading at given range)

Works out to 1720 shots. Not including setup at various ranges that's almost 5 hours at 10sec/shot including reloading and fps recording.

I think it may be possible to determine safe impact energy by picking a baseline muzzle velocity that we're already accepting with 0.2g pellets. Take a sample ASG firing at the max acceptable muzzle velocity (highest velocity we're willing to accept a point blank shot) and hit a piece of styrofoam. Blue foam manufactured for insulation may be a good one because it's avail in quantity and probably is made in high consistency. Measure the penetration depth and we can use the resultant penetration depth to determine how heavier pellets behave at various velocities. Ideally, we'd make some ballistic jello, but I think that may be a lot more trouble than foam.

I think we can make a start with limited tests. I took a first stab at the issue with trying to address mercy ranges. Working out the actual safety issues with high powered ASGs and longer ranges is a much more complicated problem. I'd like to get to it someday, but setting aside a couple days to set up rifles, find a range, and find help is outside of my abilities for awhile.

Sha Do: take some potshots at a protected chrony (put some polycarb to protect the screen) at 100' and see how your rifles do with different weights of ammo. I would also be interested to see how airsoft players perceive ranges. Measure out some targets at random ranges and ask players to estimate how far various targets are. Have them write down their estimate for say 5 targets and see how well they perceive range.
__________________
Want nearly free GBB gas?

MadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 09:37   #7
CDN_Stalker
Official ASC Bladesmith
 
CDN_Stalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ottawa, Ont.
Send a message via MSN to CDN_Stalker
Excellent topic with excellent info, keep it up guys!

Edit: Actually, Sha Do said something that I think is VERY important, distance training. I know he teaches that with his course, but not every one can attend (some don't need to), but I feel it's one of the biggest responsibilities than anyone with a sniper rifle should learn. I trained myself, it's easy, challenging, and addictive. Every day life, when on the street, sitting on your front or back porch, look at objects and guesstimate the range. I do it all the time, have since even before I got my first sniper rifle. Started with my measuring with boots (12" soles exactly) out to trees in my back field from my porch, hung a bright orange ribbon on a tree 100ft away, one on a tree 150ft away, and there's another tree out back that stands out, measured 230ft away. When ever you get the chance, look at those objects between you and it, and study the distance (amount) of ground in between. Using the height of objects, such as 6ft tall guy, isn't always the best, because not everyone stands that height or even tall. My method works for trees, walls, prone guys, etc. and am generally within 20ft of being correct. Am always on with the 100ft engagement distance I religiously stick by (been times I've not pulled the trigger even though the guy is 100-110ft away, due to not feeling comfortable with it because little branches or something in the way and don't want to risk having my BBs tick one and hit the guy in the mouth or something.) So, try those simple exercises out when you can and always, it's a decent way to pass the time wherever you are (except in small rooms of course!)
CDN_Stalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 15:19   #8
AvroAero
 
AvroAero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vaughan, Ontario
Send a message via AIM to AvroAero Send a message via MSN to AvroAero
Personally I think its so that someone doesn't get autoed at close range making majority of the rounds hits, and thus very painful.
__________________



Old User Rating
AvroAero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 16:41   #9
CDN_Stalker
Official ASC Bladesmith
 
CDN_Stalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ottawa, Ont.
Send a message via MSN to CDN_Stalker
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvroAero
Personally I think its so that someone doesn't get autoed at close range making majority of the rounds hits, and thus very painful.
Sorry, I guess I shoudl have specified I was only talking about upgraded sniper rifles.
CDN_Stalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 18:41   #10
Brian McIlmoyle
8=======D
 
Brian McIlmoyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Toronto
don't muddle the Message

The basis of this is that there is not a significant difference between the potential for injury at 10 feet than at 0 feet. Leaving out the issue of upgraded weapons I think it is safe to say that within stock weapons the difference is immaterial.

This is the basis of our "No Mercy" rules at TTAC3. We limit the FPS to 350. and do not allow full auto fire. I think that this allows engagments at anything from 0 to max effective range to be "mostly safe"
This in turn allows for a realistic representation of CQB engagments.
CQB with Mercy... may as well be hide and seek, the "edge" is totaly lost.

In a mixed weapon open game outside with upgraded guns, it really does beg the question. Does a 10 foot standoff really offer any significant increase in safety? Should it be greater? does it matter?
__________________
Brian McIlmoyle
TTAC3 Director
CAPS Range Officer
Toronto Downtown Age Verifier

OPERATION WOODSMAN

If the tongue could cut as the sword does, the dead would be infinite
Brian McIlmoyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2006, 20:11   #11
The Saint
 
The Saint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Quebec
You know, looking at things from the opposite direction, I wonder what most people would consider an acceptable upper limit to the mercy distance.
__________________
"The Bird of Hermes is My Name, Eating My Wings to Make Me Tame."
The Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12th, 2006, 01:36   #12
MadMax
Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations
 
MadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop
I find 10' an awkward range in a CQB setting to begin with especially at TTAC3 where typical engagement range is often very short with many kills made just as one rounds a corner.

That being said, I also think 350fps is high given the typical engagement range. Other than affording the convenience of allowing some outdoor fielded guns at TTAC, I see little contribution by having such a high muzzle velocity. Stock gun velocity is difficult to dodge at typical CQB range so the added pain and potential lost teeth doesn't seem to be worth very much. Ditching a mercy rule with lower fps limits would go towards reducing injury and improve the game with no expectations of mercy.

I could even see a use for particularly low powered airsoft (say stock guns or MP7's) being allowed to fire full auto. The stock MP7 only puts out a piddly 215-220fps. Perhaps allowing low power airsoft to be played full auto in tight CQB could add to TTAC3 games.

Brian has been running TTAC3 allowing 350fps for some time now. Considering the typically close engagement distances and relatively high max fps allowances, there seems to be very few complaints of undue pain from particapants there. We have probably been overstating the safety requirement for a 10' mercy range.

Either that or we have been understating the acceptable minimum mercy range as 10' provides little impact reduction.
__________________
Want nearly free GBB gas?

MadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12th, 2006, 01:52   #13
swatt13
Captain Awesome
 
swatt13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Greater Grande Prairie (greater than vancouver)
im ok with the limit including my stock aeg, you know there are assholes that will interperate the range rule to suite their needs either claiming they didnt know their gun hit that hard, or what not. the 10ft rule is there to protect all.

just because my car is a tuned up sports car, that should mean i should be able to drive faster and take exits faster than regular cars, its unfair to me because why should i follow the rules for slow cars? the speed limit is there to protect all.
__________________
Age verifier southern Alberta

Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoSeven
a Systema PTW is like KD, where the noodles are plated in gold and the cheese sauce is actually a pool of hot naked women.
swatt13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12th, 2006, 02:04   #14
MadMax
Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations
 
MadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop
The point of stringent chrony at the beginning of games is to inform players and game orgs of the muzzle velocity of ASGs on the field. With stringent chronying at fields there is no excuse for "not knowing" the muzzle velocity your ASG shoots.

Speed limits are applied to cars because it's decided that all humans are created equal. It is impossible to measure the immediate reflexes of drivers and the aggregate handling quality of vehicles with given road conditions so a blanket speed limit is applied to roadways.

Conversely, it is quite possible to chrony every ASG brought onto a field and determine muzzle fps in a very definite way. Since chronying is something which is supposed to be done stringently, why not use the data to make for a more fun yet still safe game?
__________________
Want nearly free GBB gas?

MadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12th, 2006, 02:36   #15
swatt13
Captain Awesome
 
swatt13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Greater Grande Prairie (greater than vancouver)
oh ya its a good idea, and is fair, but imo it would be too complicated to accopmlish for little outome. at my games i try to level the playing field as much as possible, but instead of happy campers they complain and bitch morem and then theres always the inevitable player who will interpret the rules in a way you never impied and creat more problems.
you could segregate all the players into catagories low/mid/i pwrd aegs, or hand out cards w/ cronied, but what is taht actually going to accomplish, then people are just going to have something else to bitch about, saying theres too many rules, and your4 making it no fun, when all your doing it trying to appease complaints they have expressed in the past, i say fuck em, teh way we do it (10ft) works, and it does the trick w/ little complaints, when you change it up, you open a whole new can of copmlaint worms.... unless you enjoy worms..... then it might be tasty.
__________________
Age verifier southern Alberta

Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoSeven
a Systema PTW is like KD, where the noodles are plated in gold and the cheese sauce is actually a pool of hot naked women.
swatt13 is offline   Reply With Quote
ReplyTop


Go Back   Airsoft Canada > General > General

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Airsoft Canada
AirsoftParts.ca

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.