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Old March 30th, 2006, 09:44   #76
walks
 
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it also seams that here in ontario, the IQ of young adults is getting lower every year, same with their maturity level. my town is full of hippies the ones that love flowers and stuff, if a 16 was caught in public with an airsoft gun in this town shit would be all over the news with "kids that kill arent nice" and " ban guns from our town" the last one I've heard lots of times from local meetings.
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Old March 30th, 2006, 12:12   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greylocks
Fluffy and others. The primary problem here is underage players who decide to break the rules. They tend to whine the most too.

If a 16 year old teenager does the following; gets parental consent, gets parental direct supervision, has his/her parents buy and retain property of the guns at all other times, there is NO problem. Those guys DO play, they have no problems at all.

See, all I was asking is why some clubs refuse to do this.

Sammy, your scenarios are much more likely to happen when a kid (who bought an AEG regardless of any of you, it does happen) isn't given proper instruction about the safety of using/transporting it. And now many of you are going to say "but it's common sense" or "let the parent's teach the kid"

What may seem like common sense to you and I is because we're involved in it. Ignorance doesn't mean the kid is stupid, it means he's uninformed.

What if it's a single mother or something, who in her mind bought her kid a toy? She wants to participate in the consent and supervision of her child as she would during any "physical" or "potentially dangerous" event. But as far as airsoft goes, she herself doesn't know or care about it at all. This is not the person we want teaching them how to use/transport their gun.

A lot of you seem to think that I'm saying to "give all the kids a gun who wants one" or "make it legal for kids". Frankly I couldn't care less, it doesn't matter to me if I'm shooting someone who is 14 or 41.

If a kid starts playing airsoft in a park with his friends because one of us shut the door on his face the day before, whoever it may have been is in no position to whine or complain about the outcome.

"All the is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
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Old March 30th, 2006, 12:44   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greylocks
Fluffy and others. The primary problem here is underage players who decide to break the rules. They tend to whine the most too.

If a 16 year old teenager does the following; gets parental consent, gets parental direct supervision, has his/her parents buy and retain property of the guns at all other times, there is NO problem. Those guys DO play, they have no problems at all.

See, all I was asking is why some clubs refuse to do this.
Often it's an insurance issue.
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Old March 30th, 2006, 12:47   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy
If a kid starts playing airsoft in a park with his friends because one of us shut the door on his face the day before, whoever it may have been is in no position to whine or complain about the outcome.
That's bullshit. There are laws in place that prevent minors from owning airguns, and as a direct result, from playing airsoft on their own. Whether or not the minor agrees with the law is completely irrelevent.

Just because a 14-year-old wants to drive my car and the law (and myself) says he can't doesn't mean I have no reason to complain about the outcome when he steals my car and crashes it.
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That was a very bad move on your behalf. Sort of like cutting off your foot for money, but not getting the money first and then letting the person with the money run away.
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Old March 30th, 2006, 13:49   #80
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Fluffy, because there's no reason why clubs should have to pay hundreds of dollars extra per month for insurance, or as another person said; why should I risk all I own if mommy sues me?

Not worth it. The laws are already against it, nobody should have to take on the extra responsibility and costs.

It's all about liability, and the right to refuse to be responsible for a minor that is not your child.
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Old March 30th, 2006, 13:51   #81
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I have no doubt this threat could continue like it has been for another 6 pages! So just to get imput from a retailer! In regards to the initial issue of this thread. I have been doing this a very long time. I can tell you 100% speaking for us (members of Airsoft Alliance Canada, which consist of Double Edge, Rangers and M-1), that we have very strick rules set in place to ensure any airsoft we sell don't fall into the hands of minors. Dispite these rules, and safegaurds, has this happened to us.. absolutely! Will it happen again? I'm sure it will. The realality of it is, that if someone 16, or 17 wants one, they will get one. Being mostly an online seller, I'm sure they have friends over 18 that will do the transaction for them. There is only so much we can do as retailers. Now, I assure you that we do take it very seriously, and do our absolute best to prevent this, but it does happen, and there are ways around it no matter how you go about it. As for younger teens, then yes, we also have parents that purchase these for there children. We do speak with the parents, we do our best to make sure they realize the responsibility they are undertaking, and what happens after that, is completely out of our control. And yes, we have even refused to sell our products to legal parents/gaurdians in a few circumstances where it was very clear there would NOT be any responsibility taken by that parent/gaurdian.

We have had online credit card fraud! We have had people lie to us, produce false ID's, ect..... If you look at the over-all big picture, I'm sure you will find that we as a Canadian market, does very well. If you take the total airsoft sales over the period of one year in the Canadian market, and then the percentage of minors getting their hands on these products, I would guess it would be a VERY, low number (My guess would be in the 1% - 3% range, and it's just my GUESS - unproven.. opinion).

Although I can't say 100%, I can say with confidence that the majority of other ESTABLISHED retailers from what I have seen over the past 4 or 5 years in our market are also very responsible in this area, and for sure do their part to minimize this from happening. I of course speak of the retailers that have proven themselves, and actually run their company as a serious business (Tru, Spec Arms, 007, Rangers, M-1 ect..).

Again, just had to get something in here from an actual retailer. Just my personal opinion, coupled with my experiance of selling for the past 5+ years. As for the rest of the issues in this thread that have evolved...... Not even going to go there
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Old March 30th, 2006, 15:33   #82
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i apologize, ill stop
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Old March 30th, 2006, 15:43   #83
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Sure there are responsible kids. Nizfiz you forgot though all of us were once one. A child who is under 18 is not responsible for there own actions. The responsiblity falls on teh parents. So if johnny dumb ass goes to an airsoft game and does something stupid its his parents fault not his. If he goes into the street and gets shot it makes us look bad. Child with replica weapon is killed by police makes an awesome headline. As a kid you think your invincible and i know this cus i was one not to long ago. It wasnt until i joined the army and mangled the living shit out of my spine did i realise how wrong that was. I can remeber when i was younger firing traveling moon whistlers out of dollar store guns at eachother. Guess what people do stupid shit.


Edit> Greylocks clearly stated an airsoft gun falls under replica status and you gotta be 18 to own one or have the owner with you. READING IS A SKILL.
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Old March 30th, 2006, 16:02   #84
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You guys should listen to what Gralocks says, it's all in the criminal code and the firearms act. Those who like to live in denial and don't want to believe him, take a look for youreself.

Warning: it will involve searching and reading, so the spoonfeed lazy butt-holes will be displeased...

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/srch.cg...d=203284&exp=7
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Old March 30th, 2006, 16:02   #85
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im done
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Old March 30th, 2006, 16:11   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nizfiz
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuffinMan
Yes, there is the occasional good apple amongst the barrel full of rotting ones, but when the rotting outnumber the good, it's very hard to paint a positive picture on the youth of today.
Do you have kids? That's an awfully harsh judgement to make. You can't judge an entire generation based on what you hear on TV and in studies.

On another note, what happens if an adult gets seriously injured at an airsoft field? He/she can sue too can't he?

To scruface:

Your parallel to letting a 14 year old drive your car is jsut plain dumb. There are very clear laws against that. I don't think there are any clear laws against a minor handling an airsoft gun. For god sakes, it's a toy gun and in the proper environment (ie. an airsoft field) what difference does it make.
Indeed? Let's see...I've been a High School teacher for over 10 years, so I CAN judge an entire generation - I deal with kids up to 50 hours a week, and I see all the moronic stunts they pull all day long. I also have a son that's older than many of the members of this forum. I get to judge.

To address you comment about adults vs. minors in general, adults are considered to be responsible for their own actions; minors are not. If I intentionally do an airsoft drive-by and get caught, I'm going to jail and likely going to civil court for damages. A minor will get released to their parents, and nothing much will come of it from a legal standpoint because (as has been said multiple times, but you aren't getting it yet) minors are not accountable for their actions.

I fail to see why you consider my parallel to a child breaking the law, whether it be with an airsoft gun or an automobile, dumb. You yourself admit you "don't think there are laws against minors handling airsoft". Guess what, sunshine? There are laws, and you don't know them. Ignorance of the law is not going to get you much sympathy from the members of this forum nor the police or legal system. Virtually every major city in this country has bylaws making it a crime to discharge airguns within city limits - city limits includes parks and your backyard if you live in the city, where many teens play . The Province of Ontario has a law that prohibits the ownership of airguns by anyone under the age of majority - that's 18; not 16, not 17. 18. There are laws about who can and cannot drive an automobile, just like there are laws about who can and cannot own an airsoft gun. The analogy is a perfectly good one - you just don't like it, and/or don't understand it.

Finally, these are NOT toys - they are, as defined by the Canadian Firearms Centre (which SPECIFICALLY mentions Tokyo marui airsoft gun) Prohibited devices. Again, something you apparently do not know.

I'd suggest you spend some time reading and researching the apparently huge sum of knowledge that you admittedly don't know about this sport in Canada.

ps - can you at least spell my screen name right. It's just a respect thing, you know? Something the younger generation always struggles with....
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Old March 30th, 2006, 16:14   #87
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Thank you Skruface thats exactly what i wanted to say. So who can read now...
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Old March 30th, 2006, 16:19   #88
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[QUOTE=nizfizOn another note, what happens if an adult gets seriously injured at an airsoft field? He/she can sue too can't he?
[/QUOTE]

Not a bad question. Let me answer it. An adult can sign a waiver, and is subject to contributory negligence, voluntary assumption of risk defenses and the standard of care issue favours the defendant in cases where adults are injured.

None of which applies to minors. The legal risk to having a minor on an airsoft field is orders of magnitude higher. Damage awards for serious injuries to minors are also usually much higher.

Volunti anyone?

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Old March 30th, 2006, 16:20   #89
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Hes like batman but in the legal sense. Every time a thread about somethings legalities you pop up.
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Old March 30th, 2006, 16:24   #90
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w/e, I understand. I don't/won't seek to break the rules. I give up.
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