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Combustion powered airsoft guns - a revolution?

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Old December 21st, 2005, 14:28   #46
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No need to apologize, it wasn't a personal attack on you, just a general statement about why it's good to at least expand on new ideas before shutting them down for "political reasons".

Anyhow, if it WERE plausible at this point, there could still be a functioning prototype system that looked nothing like a gun, that could show it worked...

It's also valid for you to bring up the point that implementing and demonstrating the concept could be cause for bad publicity, because you're not trying to shut this thread down and close our brains. Just keeping things on track, yea? So ... it's cool! (Not that you need my approval)

Oh, also - so, can someone confirm this? :

I was under the impression that the C3 fired by having the combustion move a piston and compress air, and that it wasn't actually the exhaust gasses firing the projectile. Now, I see that interesting animated GIF file, which indicates a totally different mechanism.

Which one is it? And what about building a combustion system which uses the combustion in lieu of a spring to move a piston head.

Or... How about magnets? I love magnets...
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Old December 21st, 2005, 16:27   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteryfish
Doesn't look like anyone did any reading -

There are physical reasons why the combustion chamber cannot be shrunk, unless it's drastically altered, and likely in a way that doesn't really do anything practical or functional in terms of making it more "airsoft friendly".

Madmax explained that. You can't generate the same conditions as in the Tippmann C3 on a smaller scale just by shrinking all the parts.
Obviously one cannot take the Tippman design and reverse engineer it into an airsoft gun. I wasn't suggesting that. The reason it should be appealing to airsofters is because it provides a report when fired, which is something AEGs lack. Since the entire point of airsoft versus paintball is more realism, one would think such a development is a large step forward. Given a choice between an AEG and a combustion powered gun of the exact same type but double the price, I'd go with the latter without hesitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteryfish
Other alternatives might be other fuel sources, or a redesign, but those are both good reasons to say "Wow.. the C3 is a neat idea, but it doesn't really do anything for us ... "
Speaking of not reading, 50,000 shots on a $3 tank of propane. Do the math.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 17:47   #48
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You can keep your electric power, but just build in a small selanoid into your gun with a propane tank on a remote line... and just vent the gas out the ejector or through a little nozzle under the barrel. You'll still get a loud kind of pop but you'll retain your electric power. I think that would be neat. It will also mask the mouse-sex noise an AEG already makes.

I know that companies use propane powered machineguns in movies to save on the cost of blanks (saving private ryan for example)
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Old December 21st, 2005, 17:52   #49
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Was it loud when that one flew mere inches over your head :innocent:

Just kidding.

But seriously. I think you missed the point. (WK)

Unless you meant "a combustion design of some sort, that doesn't use propane"

(since it's been outlined already that in the type of confinement typically an issue with replica-sized guns, the use of propane in any sort of practical combustion mechanism isn't workable. (with the current system in question. ahem).

Because in that case (which I mentioned) it might be plausible, but like I said, the tippmann C3 design doesn't do much for airsofters. Something that WOULD would probably (as mentioned... by me) have to be ENTIRELY different. So... No, I very much understand the implications of 50,000 shots from a $3 can of propane. But it doesn't implicate anything for airsofters, given what we've learned by reading this thread

Riiiiiiight? Gawd. How come we keep arguing about this crap WK? Can't we just agree that we're usually talking about different things :nod:
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Old December 21st, 2005, 20:06   #50
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Old December 21st, 2005, 21:30   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by made Man
And there MadMax comes in and saying smart thing kills our dreams.... as usuall. DAMN YOU SCIENCE!
hahahahahhaha


i also like Penguin's idea to make the guns louder. or even like caps or something.....i know this is moving off the thread's topic, but still.
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 16:45   #52
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Maybe it shouldnt be made for Airsoft.... but instead, LAUNCHERS

They are big enough, it would be cool to see someone pull out an Rpg-7 or a Predator and shoot a big nerf ball out ( or something else i guess )
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 17:46   #53
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Originally Posted by Combine
Maybe it shouldnt be made for Airsoft.... but instead, LAUNCHERS

They are big enough, it would be cool to see someone pull out an Rpg-7 or a Predator and shoot a big nerf ball out ( or something else i guess )
Now THAT'd be legal.
Does the 5.7 J rule apply to launchers as well? I just have a hard time thinking that could be legal... Also, now that I'm thinking, wouldn't the heat on the BB deform it a fair bit? Or make it expand? Leaving a residue on the inner barrel and hampering your accuracy, after a while jamming the barrel and causing access pressure that COULD potentially send your gun to hell as well as sending some shrapnel in a few different directions?
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 22:35   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combine
Maybe it shouldnt be made for Airsoft.... but instead, LAUNCHERS

They are big enough, it would be cool to see someone pull out an Rpg-7 or a Predator and shoot a big nerf ball out ( or something else i guess )
Now THAT'd be legal.
Does the 5.7 J rule apply to launchers as well? I just have a hard time thinking that could be legal... Also, now that I'm thinking, wouldn't the heat on the BB deform it a fair bit? Or make it expand? Leaving a residue on the inner barrel and hampering your accuracy, after a while jamming the barrel and causing access pressure that COULD potentially send your gun to hell as well as sending some shrapnel in a few different directions?
I'm not sure if there would be enough prolonged heat on the BB to cause it to reach its melting temperature. After all, it leaves the barrel quite quickly, does it not? You may have bigger issues with the barrel heating up, if you've got a full auto combustion gun.
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 22:51   #55
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Right. I meant that when I said expanding... as well as the BB... er... in all my rambling I was bound to miss something.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 00:03   #56
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There is definatly an upside if this ever works. You would no longer have problems with your GBB in cooler weather.

Just a thought

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Old December 23rd, 2005, 11:46   #57
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It is possible, it could work on a simple principle sort of like a gas valve similar to the type on a pulsejet engine (i have built some before)

Here is one concept I thought of while reading this post.



As you can see though that the temperatures would now allow this design to be a fully automatic weapon because the heat generated would melt a plastic ball to the barrel, the balls in the loading unit would also melt from the heat.

The reason a paintball is not affected by the heat is because of the liquid content inside, however if the C3 was a fully automatic weapon this would quickly change.
How you ask, well think of it this way, youre camping out by the fire pit, take 2 styrofoam or plastic cups and fill one with water, put them both on the flame and see which one gives away first.
The membrane of the cup with water in it is cooled down by the liquid inside therefore the flashpoint of that cup is much higher than the cup with nothing in it. the C3 works because the oils and food coloring insice the plastic capsule cool the capsule enough so it does not melt, and since liquid has a higher boiling point than plastics flachpoint the membrane stays cooled down enough to get the ball out without any melting.

If the C3 was automatic then the heat generated by constand auto fire would be so high that the metal chamber and breech would be red hot, this would damage any paintball or plastic airsoft ball that would sit there when you took your finger off the trigger.

I vote we stick to AEG's, they are just as practical and charging a battery is cheaper than a $3 propane tank, they make no heat and well...face it, they work.

I agree it would be cool to have a more realistic gun but this would require a non heat gas operation, so you'd be going back to an auto GBB which is much less practical than an AEG because youre limited to one of 2 things, a small amount of gas resulting in less shots and crappy FPS or a hose coming out of the gun.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 18:09   #58
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realism, simple mechanism, cheap ammo and power souces, safety.

you need a balance between these, and airsoft is simple mechanism, realism except for the sound, cheap and SAFE. Getting a compromised airsoft gun just for getting a big BANG?

IF everyone just want a realistic sound, we should improve on soundmaker, not compromizing safety.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 21:22   #59
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The impuse engine is a neat idea. I don't know if it's possible to get the expansion to also flush the combustion chamber without an additional large area valve somewhere on your chamber.

The nozzle acts as a check valve only allowing gas flow forward. You'd need a low cracking pressure large area valve on either the left or right end of the chamber. You can probably get away with a thin shim of steel flapped over some 3/16" ports. The explosion would push the shim pretty shut, but when the nozzle valve checks shut the steel flaps would open up and let fresh air in.

Unfortunately you'd have to wait for the chamber to cool down and the gases to contract to draw in fresh air and a measured injection of propane. Without an open airflow, either the straight through or the U shaped jet path, I don't think you can get quick enough recharge of fresh air.
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Old December 24th, 2005, 00:31   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
The impuse engine is a neat idea. I don't know if it's possible to get the expansion to also flush the combustion chamber without an additional large area valve somewhere on your chamber.

The nozzle acts as a check valve only allowing gas flow forward. You'd need a low cracking pressure large area valve on either the left or right end of the chamber. You can probably get away with a thin shim of steel flapped over some 3/16" ports. The explosion would push the shim pretty shut, but when the nozzle valve checks shut the steel flaps would open up and let fresh air in.

Unfortunately you'd have to wait for the chamber to cool down and the gases to contract to draw in fresh air and a measured injection of propane. Without an open airflow, either the straight through or the U shaped jet path, I don't think you can get quick enough recharge of fresh air.
The idea then, could work very well, I would imagine, for BA sniper rifles, which would be awesome.
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