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Old November 27th, 2005, 02:38   #16
Cyrus
 
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Those are just concept shots by the look of it. Just the way that box on the right side of the first pic is sitting on the floor, just doesn't look right. As well as the grate.



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Old November 27th, 2005, 11:19   #17
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The problem is the sheer overhead of both acquiring and running on a long term basis, a facility as we are discussing. The airsoft market in Southern Ontario is quite small, and the amount of revenue you can squeeze from said market is even smaller... which is why you would need to look to multiple revenue streams to support it. Like Brian has mentioned, ProShop, Rentals, team building sessions, blah blah blah. But even with all of these things, I think you would be hard pressed to make ends meet on a regular basis.

The rent/lease + utilities + insurance alone would kill you. Let's not mention building and maintaining structures, employees, maintaining your weapon/parts inventory etc...

I would love to see a serious indoor/outdoor airsoft facility fly in Southern Ontario but it's going to take people with a passion for the game, lots of money, lots of energy and piles of imagination and business know-how.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 14:22   #18
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Quote:
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I prefer CQB to be a little more atmospheric, with more "real-world" feel. This seems way too polished and organized for me personally. But then again... any place to play is a good thing.

I agree. CQB should be dirty, slippery and full of sharp edges like real life. Of course, there are insurance issues to worry about, but I dreaming a bit here..

Real doors. Lightbulbs you could break at will. Candy glass in the windows so you can smash it without TOO much risk.

Even small sections of wall that were made of paper or bristle board so if you didn't have disiplined fire, the BB's could travel through walls and hit noncoms in other rooms, also just like real life...

Who could afford it tho. Brain's math is very sobering!
Just make the walls out of a printed spandex or other flexable fabric with a photography of a wall or brick or whatever printed on it (they can do it). Now you have many vertical slits in it, so it will be invisible but a bb will most always find a way through to the other side. After this, the slits would automatically close up and save you from having to replace a billion walls.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 14:33   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Just make the walls out of a printed spandex or other flexable fabric with a photography of a wall or brick or whatever printed on it (they can do it). Now you have many vertical slits in it, so it will be invisible but a bb will most always find a way through to the other side. After this, the slits would automatically close up and save you from having to replace a billion walls.
The only problem with that, is that it's not too sturdy for someone to bump in to, I'd rather have solid walls that can take a body check, than have my bbs be able to go through them....
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Old November 29th, 2005, 18:29   #20
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There is a strictly airsoft indoor CQB arena in Winnipeg. 12,000 sq ft.
www.xtreme-tactics.com
Its a little to far for you guys, unless you are in the area in the future.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 23:46   #21
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Just make the walls out of a printed spandex or other flexable fabric with a photography of a wall or brick or whatever printed on it (they can do it). Now you have many vertical slits in it, so it will be invisible but a bb will most always find a way through to the other side. After this, the slits would automatically close up and save you from having to replace a billion walls.
The only problem with that, is that it's not too sturdy for someone to bump in to, I'd rather have solid walls that can take a body check, than have my bbs be able to go through them....
Excellent point, that hadn't actually crossed my mind. The only thing less realistic than bb's not going through walls.. is random people flying through them ever 2 seconds. It would be like a Chow Yun Fat movie.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 23:53   #22
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lol Exactly, besides, last time I checked most personal arms won't go through a cinderblock wall, so having them not go through walls in the case of bbs isn't all that far off the mark anyway.

...MAN I can't wait until the end of December so I can hit up TTAC3...
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Old November 30th, 2005, 00:56   #23
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i should build stuff on my land just for fun lol it would be awsome
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Old November 30th, 2005, 00:59   #24
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There is a strictly airsoft indoor CQB arena in Winnipeg. 12,000 sq ft.
www.xtreme-tactics.com
Its a little to far for you guys, unless you are in the area in the future.
Exactly. Everyone opining an indoor airsoft place wouldn't fly here, click the link. Two years old and still going.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 01:34   #25
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Pricing,

Extreem -tactics ... charges $18.00 for 45 minutes of game play...

seems kinda high to me.. particularly when the going rate seems to be $20 to $25 for 4+ hours here in the GTA.

However that said... the going price is artificialy low because we are using a "paintball" benchmark,, and we all know that the real money is made in paint sales and rentals.

Because airsofters expect to pay such low prices it really reduces the viability of any airsoft only venture. TTAC3 is only possible because it is my space .. and the other things I am doing there are paying the bills. As a stand alone venture.. it is not viable.

I think that the going rate for field fees needs to be doubled to $40 to $50, This is a more realistic price to pay for the use of indoor facilities.
However.. the market dictates that this is "too much" despite the fact that a game of paintball anywhere will cost you easily 3 to 5 times the field fee by day end.

Airsofters have unreasonable expectations with respect to cost to play.

For any airsoft only facility with full access, play every day, proshop,special events.. excetera... the typical player would need to become used to paying between $50 and $60 a session, to start.. and be required to use on site purchased BBs ....even then you would need a solid 20 to 30 players every day to make a go of it.

As I have said.. it's not impossible.. but you would need to have enough backing to loose money for at least 2 years before it could build enough of a client base to start paying.

lets look at the numbers for a startup.

Say a 10 000 sq foor space, at $15 per foot, rent = $150 000.00 a year
renovations.. to make the space useable.. say $20 per square foot, $200 000.00
Insurance, $20 000.00
rental equipment, investment $30 000.00
marketing, $20 000.00
Employees.$125 000.00
utilities, $24 000.00 a year

first year **expenses** for start up $570 000.00

and year over year expenses..just to keep the doors open.. $350 000.00

or $956 per day which means you need 25 players at $40 per player per day to just break even..
you have not paid a penny on the Hummer you will invariably feel entitled to, or paid yourself a cent.

to make a decent living for yourself.. you would need another 5 players every day.. up to 30 then.. every day.

so.. all I need is 30 guys to commit to pay me $1200 a month to play airsoft every day, and I'l do it.. I will set it up.

You would need a player base of thousands to do it...Again this is relying only on the itinerant airsoft player... Add in other revenue streams like "corporate teambuliding" "professional training" contracting out to police and military for training.. proshop income, concessions... then it starts ot become more viable... But again you need to have backing for at least 3 years full expenses to really have any hope of success.

so anyone got 1.4 million they want to put up to finance the venture?
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Old November 30th, 2005, 08:43   #26
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XT seems expensive, but people do it almost every day (except monday, when theyr'e closed).. And keep in mind that's $18.00 if you own your own gun, and upwards of $45 for the rental of a fully kitted out G36C.

Not to mention: You don't need a PR Blitz to get out there, XT's been working on word of mouth alone. Gord's little hand-folded brochures get passed around a lot at social venues and they've showed off the 'goods' at LAN parties as well.

Plus, at XT there are a bunch of people who just volunteer to fill mags, clean kit, organize do briefings and ref matches. I'm still unsure as to who ACTUALLY works there ( ) but I'm sure there would be enough enthusiastic airsofters to fill the void of "Will Work For Free BB's And Propane"
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Old November 30th, 2005, 09:02   #27
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With XT's business model, the players also spend 45 minutes getting kitted up and sitting through the safety breifing, so they're usually there for 1.5 - 2 hours, and that's enough for most people. Besides, your first 4 mags of ammo are also included in the price, as is the rental of all the gear (helmet, eye protection, tac vest, gun + battery, 4 mags). I haven't heard anyone complain about the prices, especially since most folks tend not to burn through tons of extra ammo - 4 mags (280 rounds) in 45 minutes is usually enough if you don't go hog-wild on full auto.

Muffin's right about the level of volunteerism, too. There's a regular crew of guys who will show up and help load mags or distribute gear or help in other ways for nothing more than the opportunity for a little play and some bb's + gas. A little elbow grease is a free fix for the mid-week jonesing to play.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 12:47   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Quote:
Originally Posted by gandar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Just make the walls out of a printed spandex or other flexable fabric with a photography of a wall or brick or whatever printed on it (they can do it). Now you have many vertical slits in it, so it will be invisible but a bb will most always find a way through to the other side. After this, the slits would automatically close up and save you from having to replace a billion walls.
The only problem with that, is that it's not too sturdy for someone to bump in to, I'd rather have solid walls that can take a body check, than have my bbs be able to go through them....
Excellent point, that hadn't actually crossed my mind. The only thing less realistic than bb's not going through walls.. is random people flying through them ever 2 seconds. It would be like a Chow Yun Fat movie.

But it's still a GREAT idea for sections of wall, say, just above hip height and in areas where someone leaning on it are slim.
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Old December 1st, 2005, 22:21   #29
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TWow... looks pretty neat place to play...
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